Hi Guys,

I'm going to do something a little different today. I wasn't exactly sure where to post this, but I figured since I enjoy programming and poker, it would make sense to post here (I also really like this community).

My issue is that I am not sure of the direction I want to go in terms of my career. I've always had an entrepreneurial spirit (as a lot of poker players do), so I've wanted to work for myself and have a sort of financial security. So I took up programming because it was interesting to me and it would allow this sort of freedom somewhere down the line. I just have no interest in working for someone else, but at the same time, I am not sure of what exactly I want to do for myself.

A key problem here is lack of motivation. When I first started, I got goosebumps when I was able to draw a green line on a window using Python and the framework Pygame. I was instantly hooked. So much to the point that I made a simple side-scroller hybrid in a week. After that, I have not made anything too notable. I still enjoy programming and am working towards a degree now, but I want to feel that rush again (like I felt with playing poker and trying to make a name for myself).

This next part is important, because it will help me find similarities to unlock my destiny.


My journey with poker was a lot of fun, but I will admit, I had a problem. I did not have the discipline to stop my losses, and for that, I never had a bank roll. To be honest, I have never really been that great with money, so eventually, I had to quit (for the best I'm sure, and I really commend people that have that discipline). I loved poker for the competition, and the feeling of trying to climb to the top, but I didn't know where to go from there.

My mom suggested I become a stock broker (which was a great idea actually), but I decided against it because I didn't want to do anything money related. I've always been very good at games, so I started playing League of Legends. I absolutely love the competitive aspect of league, and ended up climbing to Challenger my second year playing (for all my non gamer friends out there, Challenger is the highest tier you can achieve). I wanted to go pro, but realized that life style would not work for me as I have a girlfriend who I would like to marry someday, so that is not an option.

So now, here I am. I know what I want (financial freedom, house, travel, happiness) but I am not sure how to get there. I say happiness because I want to find a career that keeps me happy and motivated (working full time as a programmer at some company where I get to climb the ladder will not keep me happy). Poker was fun, but I was not happy. League is fun and I am really happy playing it and climbing, but it does not work for my life style. I need to find something that has a competitive aspect, where I am able to be my own boss, and make a name for myself. I thought a good idea would be to enter some indie game competitions to see who can make the best game in X amount of time (if anyone knows any good competitions or sites, I'm all ears).

That's my issue guys, I'm just a die hard entrepreneur with the competitive spirit of a lion. Competition keeps me motivated, it keeps me engaged. If anyone has any ideas of what I can try or where I can go, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you 2P2 and the Programming community. And thanks for reading

Sounds like independent consultant work might be right up your alley, but the problem with that is you need to have experience or domain specific knowledge to make a living at it. I've heard horror stories about the labor market in the gaming industry. You may try developing an app if you really want to pursue the gaming angle.

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In the business world, entrepreneurship starts and ends with money. Either you have the discipline to handle money you work for someone else who does. Even social entrepreneurship is a game of money - either you raise money or you don't. You're never your own boss unless you are able to manage money.

Here are two main things I read from your post:

1. It's possible you like the idea of being your own boss more than the reality of it. Being your own boss is almost entirely about handling money yourself and having the discipline required for this. It's not about competition, it's not about freedom, it's not about innovation. You're gonna have to handle boring things that you don't want to deal with, you don't have as much freedom because you don't have the security of someone paying you consistently and you are unlikely to get to work on the meat of the problem because you don't have the support system that takes care of the little things. You already tried being your own boss and it didn't work out - why not try something else? The main difference between being your own boss and working for someone else is that money gets taken care of by someone else.

2. It seems to me that you don't like working with other people - this is the only choice I see that you've consistently made. This is very different from being an entrepreneur - you can be an entrepreneur while working with other people and you can be an employee that mostly works alone. Any kind of significant success especially in a competitive field will require working with other people, which necessarily means giving up some individual freedom.

Interesting, I never really considered an independent consultant before. I will look more into it. And yes, the labor market in games is a disgrace. I know first hand as my better half works for a large game studio. That is why I have been so drawn to indie games/studios. Small teams with nothing but passion for their product. Unfortunately, a very large majority of games don't do well once they hit the market, not because they are bad games, but because of the lack of marketing (marketing is EVERYTHING with games).

However, this can be said about anything that I think falls into the entrepreneurial category. Athletes, Pro Gamers, even Poker Players all have a high risk of not getting to the top. It's competition like this that I love and live for. Maybe making apps is a good place for me to start focusing. At least I have programming to fall back on in case something doesn't work out. Unfortunately, I'm getting to the age where society really expects me to be in a career (I'm 28, currently a SET). Most people would tell me to "grow up" and "get a real job" at this point, but I've never been one to do things by the books. Thank you for your input Just_Grindin, I really appreciate it.

Thank you for your post candybar. I really like your analysis about being your own boss. I always thought that being your own boss was the freedom to work on what YOU wanted, and that you were in control of your own destiny. I'll be honest, I really do not like my job right now, it's just a pay check. But that is the main issue, I do not know what I can be doing to be happy. It's so cliche now a days, but people are almost taught to hate their jobs and to just put their work pants on and be an adult. I don't want to be that person. I want to love what I do. It's just lack of motivation that sometimes creeps in that gets me doubting things. I will say that I have a history of depression, but I have come a long way from that. And to be honest, that's an excuse I'd rather not use to be unmotivated anymore.

Your second point is both accurate and not. I actually do enjoy working with other people, the problem is trying to find other people that will commit to something like I will. When I was playing poker, I tried making a small community of people I would meet online and at casinos to talk strategy with and ultimately improve everyone's game. Same with making a game, I tried finding friends who were both gamers and programmers who would work on something with me, no one committed. Granted I know people have their own lives, and making a game is a big commitment, but for me, it is just really hard to do something on my own.

On the other hand, I really do hate working with people in certain environments. I can't stand office politics, and all the ass kissing that goes with it. I can't stand it when my girlfriend says, "Developers are rockstars in games, you should come work with me and you could make 130k". I originally wanted to work for a big studio, but after seeing how employees are treated, and how often things are breaking (and they all blame the Devs), I just don't want it anymore. Everyone just seems to be driven by a salary now a days instead of what they actually want to do. I asked my girlfriend what she really wants to do, and she wants to be a full time writer. To me, that is absolutely awesome, because I can relate to that entrepreneur mindset (go big or go home). Her excuse, it's too much of a risk to do it (even after I told her I would pay the bills while she tries it for a bit). She's written two books already and has them published, but to me it's an insult to not follow your dream. I WISH I knew what I wanted like her, I really do. But at the same time, I know money is important, but this is why you can have a job that pays the bills while you work towards something greater.

I just don't know, I just don't want to be one of those people who goes through life full of regret. I want to have no regrets. Even if I fail, at least I can say I tried. But you never actually fail until you quit. Every failure is a lesson learned. You are right candy, I really need to take a look at what I have tried and find out what hasn't worked. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results, lets not go down that path. Thank you for your input.

I think a better way to describe your disposition is that of an artist (as opposed to an entrepreneur). Lots of people are wired this way but there's not that much demand for artists despite all this supply, which means not many people get to live life exactly this way - even most artists have to compromise to make a living. So what separates real artists from mere artists at heart is that the former are those so extremely into the arts that they are willing to forego material comforts, are born rich, or had their talents acknowledged from when they were young enough that they never had to choose.

What do you do?

Again, spot on. I have always been more interested in creative work. I dabbled in drawing, music, and animation a bit and found all to be very interesting. In fact, I got into programming so I could make games (I guess as a form of art). I also just want to be known for whatever my craft is. Now I am even more confused as what to do, but you are right candy, I think artist mindset (with a bit of entrepreneur mixed in) is more accurate for me.

I am a Software Engineer in Test (SET). I work on software that helps scientists with cancer research. What we are doing is truly amazing, but the software is more boring than Excel, so you could imagine how I feel testing it :\

I know this isn't what you asked for but I would encourage some kind of volunteer work - whatever it is that would allow you to help those who aren't doing as well in life as you are and get to connect and empathize with a wide variety of people in a less judgmental environment. It seems that you have a talented mind and an inquisitive soul but I think there's quite a bit of distance between your overactive mind and your inner self.

solid observation


OP, I'm both similar and the reverse of you, my poker career went very well and after that I briefly dabbled with the idea of going pro in League. I quickly gave up since the toxicity really got to me and I didn't want to pursue a 2% shot when I didn't really enjoy the journey

I'm pretty bad with dealing with any type of administration in my life, so I can relate to the "I don't want to deal with that". However, it was never a problem for me in poker. All the little stuff like the study grind, mindful breathing to increase ability to focus/mental stamina, setting your own schedule and sticking to it (and optimizing the underlying habits so you don't do it on willpower which isn't sustainable) etc etc. One thing that really helps is to see those little things as integral to your goal, of what you're competing for. Becoming the best poker player in the world isn't just about multitabling for hours, it's also about managing your money, doing work to be better at the table, it's even about going for that run so you stay healthy so you can focus and keep winning long term.

That you had trouble managing your money in poker, and then were very good at league (congrats on challenger by the way, jelly) makes sense to me. League even more so than poker is really one-dimensional, you can just get lost in the flow of playing. I'm pretty sure from your description you didn't do a lot of studying away from the tables unless you were really interested in something? Eg no set schedule or something?

The 'artist' description applies to you more than the 'competitor' imo. You seem to love the flow of playing, which I get, but if you were a competitor first I think you'd figure out a way to make pro league work with a GF. That's not impossible right, the schedule really isn't all that different from regular athletes. You seem unwilling to put the work in when the work isn't immediately rewarding/flowy, eg when you might have to figure out a way how to make going pro work in league (your programming experience also sounds like this). That's not a diss, I'm sure plenty on this forum can relate, including myself.

A part of the solution is what people call "growing up", eg I have gotten better in dealing with stupid life red tape over the years, I still suck at it relatively but at least I don't get court summons just because I'm too lazy to pay a bill anymore (this happened to me more than once)

But mostly, the solution is to expand your view of your goal. If you really want to compete at something, you gotta crush the others at the margin stuff. Every pro soccer player absolutely loves playing soccer, at least the first years of their career, there's no edge there. It's the ones that can keep their diet in check, keep a clear head when others are throwing around money, that diligently do crazy boring rehab stuff so an injury heals 100%, etc etc that make it. A very similar analogy could be made for league, and poker.

The problem for me was, having already crushed poker, a similar goal of crushing in another game (league) was kind of lame. I'm currently trying to become a writer which really isn't all that much fun on a minute-to-minute base (rare are the moments where words just flow out of you), def much less satisfying than poker or league (on that minute to minute basis). But i'm excited about influencing the world, and all the boring or annoying stuff is part of that meta-goal, which keeps me energized. And having somebody (esp non-friends) tell me that they liked what I write and that it made them think is motivating in a different way than a 100k day was in poker.

I don't work hard enough at writing, I have to be consciously aware that this is different from poker, that I need to approach the work in a different way (eg poker is much more flowy than writing, in poker you have to work on quitting, in writing on not quitting). But yeah, defining your goal broad enough so that the boring or even frustrating stuff is part of it, and part of what you have to optimize/compete in, even one of the most important parts since that is where the edge is.. that's what I'd suggest.

Hopefully this wasn't too rambly or blunt

I would argue that you want what everybody wants. "It's just a pay check" isn't good enough. Work hard and try to be the best at whatever you do. Make good decisions. Capitalize on the opportunities that come your way.

Spend time with friends and family. Don't waste your time on relationships that bring you down. Meet and talk to new people. Go outside.

Happiness and success are a byproduct of those things.