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The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate

06-03-2012 , 05:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OppositeAttract
Do you feel that if Japan had the theoretical means to engage the United States using atomic tactics, that they would have reacted similary to the US in that position?
lol yes how is this even a question.

the japanese (or at least their military) in the 1940s were absolutely and objectively crazy. they would have nuked us until they ran out of uranium.



in fact, they still are completely nuts today, they just aren't evil anymore.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-03-2012 , 05:57 AM
evidence for them being completely nuts:

-started a war with the world's strongest (or at least most capable) superpower

-raped andslaughtered hundreds of thousands chinese citizens

-primary maritime strategy devolved into flying planes into boats
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-03-2012 , 08:44 AM
I realize the question was kind of a no brainer. The reason I posed it was to get the crux of the discussion. Are we (the western world) supposed to hold a higher standard for human morality objectively are above them i.e. able to communicate rational thought and therefore can feel sympathy for the victims or should we just disregard the means that it takes in order to get the outcome we covet?
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-05-2012 , 02:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by striiing
Thought to Germans were the whitest white people on earth, can't really see anything other than a mildly racist commment here.
"Yet if the Japanese were white and engaged in the atrocities they did, they'd (corrected from my original post) still be apologizing."

This was really what I meant. Don't know if it's still racist. I'd guess most people either don't know or don't care about the things the Japanese did. If we're going to demonize the Nazi's (as they should be demonized), we should be demonizing what the Japanese did, not turn the other way and conviently forget about it. Everybody knows about the concentration camps, more people should know, for example, about the Nanking Massacre. That's my point.

But because the Japanese aren't white, they do get a complete pass for what they did. The media can't shame us for their actions. Call me racist, but I'm not the one who decided that this should be so. I'm just pointing it out. Shoot the messenger all you want, doesn't bother me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGuyV
But by the same token the Jews/Russians were 'whiter' than the Japanese victims you mention.
I agree, but either we like it or not, it's obvious that nobody cares what the Japanese did because their victims weren't white (just as the perpetrators weren't white). Yet it does seem like dropping the bomb on the country turned the Japanese into eternal sufferers and forgave them everything they did.

It's not unlike when people hate-on the church and Europeans for the Crusades, when it was the Muslims who started the war. The Christians had the right to protect themselves and end it.

It's the same in this case, the Japanese started the hostilities, and by doing so to such a shameful and flagrant degree, they put their own people at risk from severe retaliation. They made that choice to have their own people suffer, imo
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-05-2012 , 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartsbeatClubs
But because the Japanese aren't white, they do get a complete pass for what they did.
So incorrect. The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, if anything, held the perpetrators of atrocities to a higher standard than the Nazis were held to. The majority of Nazis were convicted of "waging an aggressive war" in violation of international law and previous League of Nations agreements.

Quote:
I agree, but either we like it or not, it's obvious that nobody cares what the Japanese did because their victims weren't white (just as the perpetrators weren't white). Yet it does seem like dropping the bomb on the country turned the Japanese into eternal sufferers and forgave them everything they did.
Again, so fail. Are you not aware of the tremendous rift that still exists over WWII atrocities? This is like saying the US "forgave" West Germany for the Holocaust because it was quickly integrated into NATO. There was (and still is) an enormous reconciliation process in both Germany and Japan for Axis war crimes. I don't know anyone who is giving ex-fascists a "pass" on war crimes. The leaders of Germany and Japan (other than the imperial family) were harshly punished. But the civilians of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were no more responsible for war crimes than the average US citizen is of supporting corrupt Middle Eastern regimes--was the US "asking for" 9/11 because they "started the hostilities" and "put their own people at risk from severe retaliation"?

Quote:
It's not unlike when people hate-on the church and Europeans for the Crusades, when it was the Muslims who started the war. The Christians had the right to protect themselves and end it.
Again super fail! Who the hell are you reading? Rodney Stark? The Crusades were in no way defensive actions. "The Christians" and "The Muslims" were not some monolithic entity. The Byzantines asked for aid in a purely military capacity. The Seljuk Turks and Abbasid caliphs were not waging any kind of war on the Kingdoms of France, England, Burgundy, Saxony, or the Holy Roman Empire, all of which gleefully sent knights to kill Muslims in the Middle East so they wouldn't kill other knights at home (and let's forget, stopped along the way to ransack and massacre Jewish settlements in Central and Eastern Europe, much to the chagrin of the Byzantines). It's not like all the Muslims were united in a singular campaign to eradicate Christianity--Islamic factions warred with each other and were far more tolerant of Jews and heterodox Christians in their territories than the Byzantines or Western Europeans were. And nor were the Christians united in any kind of peaceful solidarity. Feudal wars were tearing Europe apart, and the Fourth Crusade was launched against the fellow "Christians" of Constantinople! Why do people think the Crusades can be viewed through the 21st century lens of a secular West and backward Middle East?

So much fail in one post.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-05-2012 , 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn Prophet
So incorrect. The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, if anything, held the perpetrators of atrocities to a higher standard than the Nazis were held to. The majority of Nazis were convicted of "waging an aggressive war" in violation of international law and previous League of Nations agreements.
I’m not saying at all that the international high courts or tribunals let the Japanese or Nazis off the hook for war crimes. I’m talking about the majority of the population and the media, and the tacit acceptance/forgiveness through silence. Media bias further distorts what really happened. If you went around polling the population, you’d get a paltry number of people who are aware about what the Japanese did. Sorry if you disagree, but I don’t know how you can deny that’s the truth. If not for the internet, there’d be even less awareness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn Prophet
But the civilians of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were no more responsible for war crimes than the average US citizen is of supporting corrupt Middle Eastern regimes--was the US "asking for" 9/11 because they "started the hostilities" and "put their own people at risk from severe retaliation"?
No I don’t believe that innocents are 'asking for it' simply because the countries involved are at war. My point is that the level of craziness of the Japanese armies prevented the US from acting any less crazy. It forces the absolute loss of humanity, empathy and intelligence in decision making, because it raises the stakes to such a desperate level in an attempt to stop the war and travesty at any cost. Which is what happened in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn Prophet
The Crusades were in no way defensive actions.
I’m well aware that the Christians were their own greatest enemy in the political actions and decisions they made during the Crusade. And what started with the idea of defending Byzantine resulted in its own destruction by the Christians. My point here is that I dislike the burden of shame we force ourselves to bear, when there shouldn’t be guilt. It’s a response to a barbaric situation, and those who cause the barbarity shouldn’t simply be seen as irresponsible or simply as victims.

The poster above called me racist, when it’s actually the media who spouts an ‘us’ and ‘them’ mentality. They do it blatently and with our acquiescence--that we should know better because we’re white and sophisticated, and that other races and cultures can’t help what they do because they're imperfect and barbaric. And it’s sickening to me, because it’s the exact same media that says ‘everyone is born equal' and ‘everyone’s opinion is special.’ And they know they don't even believe it.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-05-2012 , 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartsbeatClubs
If you went around polling the population, you’d get a paltry number of people who are aware about what the Japanese did.
Perhaps one of the reasons this history has been essentially buried in the U.S. is because it doesn't reflect well on the United States. After all, "much of the American business community and many US officials" were perfectly fine with the "hideous atrocities that killed 10 to 13 million Chinese". To US elites Japan's chief crime on this note was not the murdering of millions of Chinese--(As Native Americans can attest, US elites could certainly appreciate the idea that sometimes you have to "break" millions of eggs to make that "perfect" omelet). What pissed off U.S. elites was the fact that Japan was closing off China's economy to exploitation by U.S. corporations and investors.

Quote:
As Year 500 opened in October 1991, other memories displaced the coming quincentennial. December 7 would be the 50th anniversary of the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor, the "date which will live in infamy." Accordingly, Japanese attitudes and practices were subjected to close scrutiny, and found wanting. Some profound defect left the aberrant Japanese unwilling to offer regrets for their nefarious deed.

In an interview in the Washington Post, Foreign Minister Michio Watanabe expressed "deep remorse over the unbearable suffering and sorrow Japan inflicted on the American people and the peoples of Asia and the Pacific durin the Pacific War, a war that Japan started by the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor." He said that the National Parliament would pass a resolution on the 50th anniversary of the crime, expressing Japan's remorse. But this turned out to be just more Japanese treachery. Penetrating the disguise, New York Times Tokyo Bureau Chief Steven Weisman revealed that Watanabe had used the word hansei, "which is usually translated as 'self-reflection' rather than 'remorse'." The statement of the Foreign Minister does not count as authentic apology. Furthermore, Japan's Parliament is unlikely to pass the resolution, he added, in the light of President Bush's firm rejection of any apology for the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings.

No one considers an apology for the 1000-plane raid five days after Nagasaki on what remained of major Japanese cities, a triumph of military management skills designed to be "as big a finale as possible," the official Air Force history relates; even Stormin' Norman would have been impressed. Thousands of civilians were killed, while amidst the bombs, leaflets fluttered down proclaiming: "Your Government has surrendered. The war is over." General Spaatz wanted to use the third atom bomb on Tokyo for this grand finale, but concluded that further devastation of the "battered city" would not make the intended point. Tokyo had been removed from the first list of targets for the same reason: it was "practically rubble," analysts determined, so that the power of the bomb would not be adequately revealed. The final 1000-plane raid was therefore dispersed to seven targets, the Air Force history adds.2

Some went beyond George Bush's dismissal of any thought of apology for the use of nuclear weapons to kill 200,000 civilians. Democratic Senator Ernest Hollings told South Carolina workers they "should draw a mushroom cloud and put underneath it: `Made in America by lazy and illiterate Americans and tested in Japan'," drawing applause from the crowd. Hollings defended his remark as a "joke," a reaction to Japan's "America bashing." The humorless Japanese did not find the joke amusing. The event was briefly reported, provoking no inquiries into the American psyche.3

Japan's obsessions with the bomb, which provoke much scorn here, were also revealed after the Texas air shows where the atomic bombing was reenacted annually for many years (perhaps still is) before an admiring audience of tens of thousands, with a B-29 flown by retired Air Force General Paul Tibbets, who lifted the curtain on the atomic age at Hiroshima. Japan condemned the display as "in bad taste and offensive to the Japanese people," to no avail. Perhaps the hypersensitive Japanese would have expressed similar reservations about the showing of a film entitled "Hiroshima" in the early 1950s in Boston's "combat zone," a red-light district where pornographic films were featured: it was a Japanese documentary with live footage of scenes too horrendous to describe, eliciting gales of laughter and enthusiastic applause.

In more sedate intellectual circles, few have considered the observation by Justice Röling of the Netherlands after the Tokyo Tribunal where Japanese war criminals were tried and convicted: "From the Second World War above all two things are remembered: the German gas chambers and the American atomic bombings." Or the impressive dissent by the one independent Asian Justice, Radhabinod Pal of India, who wrote: "When the conduct of the nations is taken into account the law will perhaps be found to be that only a lost cause is a crime... if any indiscriminate destruction of civilian life and property is still illegitimate in warfare, then, in the Pacific war, this decision to use the atom bomb is the only near approach to the directives...of the Nazi leaders... Nothing like this could be traced to the present accused" at Tokyo, seven of whom were hanged along with over 900 other Japanese executed for war crimes; among them General Yama****a, executed for atrocities committed by troops over whom he had no control at the war's end. Even the reactions of high-ranking US military officials have been little noted, for example, Admiral William Leahy, chief of staff under the Roosevelt and Truman Administrations, who regarded nuclear weapons as "new and terrible instruments of uncivilized warfare," "a modern type of barbarism not worthy of Christian man," a reversion to the "ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages"; its use "would take us back in cruelty toward noncombatants to the days of Genghis Khan."4

Recognizing where power lies, Prime Minister Watanabe adopted US conventions in expressing Japan's regrets: he traced Japan's crimes to December 7, 1941, thus implicitly discounting hideous atrocities that killed 10 to 13 million Chinese, by conservative estimate, from 1937 through 1945, not to speak of earlier crimes.5

Passing silently over Watanabe's dating of the guilt, Weisman raises only one question: the evasiveness of the gesture at apology. The anniversary commemoration was based upon the same principle: killing, torturing, and otherwise abusing tens of millions of people may not be wholly meritorious, but a "sneak attack" on a naval base in a US colony is a crime of a completely different order. True, to heighten the recognition of Japan's iniquity, its atrocities and aggression in Asia are regularly tacked on to the indictment, but as an afterthought: the Pearl Harbor attack is the real crime, the initial act of aggression.

That decision has many merits. It enables us to ruminate on the strange defects of the Japanese character without having to confront some facts that are better removed from history. For example, the fact that pre-Pearl Harbor, much of the American business community and many US officials rejected "the generally accepted theory that Japan has been a big bully and China the downtrodden victim" (Ambassador Joseph Grew, an influential figure in Far East policy). The US objection to Japan's New Order in Asia, Grew explained in a speech in Tokyo in 1939, was that it imposed "a system of closed economy, ... depriving Americans of their long-established rights in China." He had nothing to say about China's right to national independence, the rape of Nanking, the invasion of Manchuria, and other such marginal issues. Secretary of State Cordell Hull adopted much the same priorities in the negotiations with Japanese Admiral Nomura before the Pearl Harbor attack, stressing US rights to equal access to the territories conquered by Japan in China. On November 7, Japan finally agreed to the US demand, offering to accept "the principle of nondiscrimination in commercial relations" in the Pacific, including China. But the wily Japanese added a qualifying clause: they would accept the principle only if it "were adopted throughout the world."

Hull was greatly shocked at this insolence. The principle was to apply in the Japanese sphere alone, he admonished the impudent arrivistes. The US and other Western powers could not be expected to respond in kind in their dominions, including India, Indonesia, the Philippines, Cuba, and other vast regions from which the Japanese had been effectively barred by extremely high tariffs when they unfairly began to win the competitive game in the 1920s.

Dismissing Japan's frivolous appeal to the British and American precedent, Hull deplored the "simplicity of mind that made it difficult for...[Japanese generals]...to see why the United States, on the one hand, should assert leadership in the Western Hemisphere with the Monroe Doctrine and, on the other, want to interfere with Japan's assuming leadership in Asia." He urged the Japanese government to "educate the generals" about this elementary distinction, reminding his backward pupils that the Monroe Doctrine, "as we interpret and apply it uniformly since 1823 only contemplates steps for our physical safety." Respected scholars chimed in with their endorsement, expressing their outrage over the inability of the little yellow men to perceive the difference between a great power like the US and a small-time operator like Japan, and to recognize that "The United States does not need to use military force to induce the Caribbean republics to permit American capital to find profitable investment. The doors are voluntarily open" -- as even the most cursory look at history will show.6


--"Year 501" by Noam Chomsky, pg. 237-40
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-06-2012 , 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartsbeatClubs
I’m not saying at all that the international high courts or tribunals let the Japanese or Nazis off the hook for war crimes. I’m talking about the majority of the population and the media, and the tacit acceptance/forgiveness through silence. Media bias further distorts what really happened. If you went around polling the population, you’d get a paltry number of people who are aware about what the Japanese did. Sorry if you disagree, but I don’t know how you can deny that’s the truth. If not for the internet, there’d be even less awareness.
I don't see any of this alleged conspiracy of silence at all. Are the Japanese atrocities as widely studied as the Holocaust? No, but no genocide receives more historical attention than the Holocaust in part because of how well-documented it was, and there is no question that it was a conscious campaign of extermination. I work in the supposedly ultra-lefty world of academia, and I really don't see Japan's role in the war being any more whitewashed than Germany's. Other than the Holocaust, I'm not sure how conscious the average person is of other WWII atrocities in any case: Japanese, German, Soviet, whatever. I have no idea what media bias has to do with it--I have yet to see an example of "ooh, those Germans were so evil, but the Japanese were high-minded warriors who got nuked by those mean Americans."
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote
06-06-2012 , 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILOVEPOKER929
Perhaps one of the reasons this history has been essentially buried in the U.S. is because it doesn't reflect well on the United States. After all, "much of the American business community and many US officials" were perfectly fine with the "hideous atrocities that killed 10 to 13 million Chinese". To US elites Japan's chief crime on this note was not the murdering of millions of Chinese--(As Native Americans can attest, US elites could certainly appreciate the idea that sometimes you have to "break" millions of eggs to make that "perfect" omelet). What pissed off U.S. elites was the fact that Japan was closing off China's economy to exploitation by U.S. corporations and investors.
tl; dr

But not a big fan of Chomsky anyways since he's been caught on record telling so many whoppers.

“He begins as a preacher to the world and ends as an intellectual crook.”- Arthur Schlesinger(Commentary, December 1969)

“Noam Chomsky skittles and skithers all over the political landscape to distract the reader’s attention from the plain truth.”- Sidney Hook (The Humanist , March-April 1971)

“In his ideological fanaticism he constantly shifts his arguments and bends references, quotations and facts, while declaring his ‘commitment to find the truth.’”- Leopold Labedz ( Encounter, July 1980)

“Even on the rare occasions when Mr. Chomsky is dealing with facts and not with fantasies, he exaggerates by a factor of, plus or minus, four or five.”- Walter Laqueur (The New Republic, March 24, 1982)

“After many years, I came to the conclusion that everything he says is false. He will lie just for the fun of it. Every one of his arguments was tinged and coded with falseness and pretense. It was like playing chess with extra pieces. It was all fake.”- Paul Postal (The New Yorker, March 31, 2003)

10 Chomsky lies about Modern History by Paul Bogdanor
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48578958/2...kylies#page=10

In interview to International Socialist Review, September-October 2002,
Chomsky said: “Do we celebrate Pearl Harbor Day every year? It’s well understood that the Japanese attack on the colonial outposts of the United States, England, and Holland was insome respects highly beneficial to the people of Asia. It was a major factor in driving the British out of India, which saved maybe tens of millions of lives. It drove the Dutch out of Indonesia.”

The Truth:

Far from being “highly beneficial to the people of Asia,” Imperial Japan killed 10million Asians between Pearl Harbor and V-J Day. Its impact on India included the Bengal famine, which claimed 1.5 million lives. The invasion of Indonesia left 4 million dead.

Chomsky also said:

“If there had been no resistance to the Japanese attack, they might not have turned to the horrifying atrocities that did ultimately turn many Asians against them.”

The Truth:

Imperial Japan’s mass murders of Asians – including the Rape of Nanking and large-scale biological warfare in China – started years before the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Last edited by Splendour; 06-06-2012 at 11:19 PM. Reason: punctuation.
The use of Atomic Bombs on Japan in WWII: Discussion/Debate Quote

      
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