Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

History Discussion of History up to Circa 1990

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-17-2011, 01:52 PM   #101
betgo
banned
 
betgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Highest ROI 16/18 & 12/180 in 2011
Posts: 28,591
Re: The Second World War

As far as the use of chemical weapons, they probably weren't used because they weren't that effective in WWI and if one side used them, the others would. The Germans probably had the best chemical weapons, but they also probably had the best equipment and soldiers, so they may not have seen a need to go there.

The Germans and Japanese had atomic programs. The US recognised the importance of atomic weapons more than anyone else and had more resources to devote to them.

The level of atroticities in WWII were bad on all sides. There was little of this in WWI, awful as it was. Obviously, the German and Japanese atrocities were the worst. The Nazis didn't completely wipe out the population of Poland and occupied USSR like the Jews and Gypsys, but they caused the deaths of millions of civilians, probably due to their racist ideology.

There were heavy casualties in Germans and Russians in each others POW camps and of anyone captured by the Japanese. There was the massive raping by Soviet soldiers. Then you have some British and US bombing which was basically high tech massacres of civilians.
betgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2011, 07:30 PM   #102
AQhearts
journeyman
 
AQhearts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Antonio,TX
Posts: 338
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by therightdeal View Post
I actually was not referring to the murdering of people, but I accept your point. The Total War strategy was always going to be revenged by the Soviets, but they (Stalins army of rapists) picked on innocent women, young girls, children and elderly women throughout Eastern Europe, some of their victims were Russian women released from concentration camps.
<citation needed>
AQhearts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2011, 09:25 PM   #103
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,104
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by AQhearts View Post
<citation needed>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...4.E2.80.931945

Quote:
In Poland, Nazi atrocities ended by late 1944, but they were replaced by Soviet oppression with the advance of Soviet forces. Soviet soldiers often engaged in plunder, rape, and other crimes against the Poles, causing the population to fear and hate the Soviet regime.[24][25][26][27]
Soldiers of Poland's Home Army (Armia Krajowa) were persecuted, sometimes imprisoned and, in many cases, executed following staged trials. An example of this was the case of Witold Pilecki, the organizer of Auschwitz resistance.[citation needed]
Units of the Red Army carried out campaigns against Polish partisans and civilians. During the Augustów chase 1945, more than 2000 Poles were captured, and about 600 of them were killed. For more about this subject, see Cursed soldiers.[citation needed]
There were cases of mass rapes in numerous Polish cities taken by the Red Army (see Rape during the liberation of Poland). In Kraków, Soviet entry into the city was accompanied by mass rapes of Polish women and girls, as well as the plunder of private property by Soviet soldiers. This behavior reached such a scale that even Polish communists installed by the Soviet Union were preparing a letter of protest to Joseph Stalin himself, while church masses were held in expectation of a Soviet withdrawal.[28]
and much more.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 08:33 PM   #104
AQhearts
journeyman
 
AQhearts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Antonio,TX
Posts: 338
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
How did I know it would be about Poland...
AQhearts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 09:29 PM   #105
monarco
veteran
 
monarco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,417
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by AQhearts View Post
How did I know it would be about Poland...
I dont know, you tell us?
You could have also scrolled down a bit in that link and read the "Germany 1944-45" part:

Quote:
Following the Red Army's capture of Berlin in 1945, one of the largest incidents of mass rape took place. Soviet troops raped German women and girls as young as 8 years old. Estimates of the total number of victims range from tens of thousands to two million.[58]
monarco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 04:42 PM   #106
Wamy Einehouse
rack 'em
 
Wamy Einehouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,650
Re: The Second World War

Well worth a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill
Wamy Einehouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2011, 08:37 PM   #107
monarco
veteran
 
monarco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,417
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wamy Einehouse View Post
that's great. also liked the later life part "He startled train conductors and passenger by throwing his attaché case out of the train window each day on the ride home. He later explained that he was tossing his case into his own backyard so he wouldn’t have to carry it from the station.[10]".
monarco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2011, 05:09 PM   #108
PizzaPill
enthusiast
 
PizzaPill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 88
Re: The Second World War

Just skimmed trought the thread and would like to share - in short - the warstory of my grandad:

He was born into a poor family and sold on his seventh birthday to tend sheep. Because this wasn't a very good job and he got beaten alot he got himself enlisted in the Army. Later he became a solider in a elite unit subordinated directly to Göhring. He told me several times how you could get nice girls with that white uniform *lol*.
As the war extended to the east he got deployed into the Blitzkrieg and fought his way trough russia. I think he even fought in Stalingrad but I don't remember exactly. Eventually he managed to get back healthy and headed directly to Potsdam/Berlin where his fiance was living (During that trip he ate almost two weeks from 1 KG of white sugar he had stolen, nothing else was there to eat).
On his way trough Berlin he approached a group of around 20 other german soldiers that where sitting around. He asked them for the way and got no answer, he then touched the shoulder of one and that solider just fell over. He told me that there must have been a explosion nearby immediately destroying all their lungs so they just sat around like their still alive. Spooky.
So he stumbled around and was basically lost, as he saw alot of marching comrades which he joined. Little did he know that this was a POW march heading right back to siberia ;(
Of about 20.000 POWs in that camp only 4.000 surived and he was one of them. He lived because he made traps and ate sparrows and he hustled the russian soliders. This is how he did it: He had to wash their clothes and because most of them couldn't count he sold them their own underwear for bread
After he returned to germany he found out his fiance was killed in the bombings, he married another wife and she gave birth to a retarded boy. The Wife and the boy died after about ten years later and he married my grandmother....

I was always amazed at this lifestory because its so insanely different from what we experience today and thats just a lifetime away, crazy. Plus he is one of the most positive humans I've ever known altough beeing trough all that crazy ****.

My other grandpa always refused to tell me anything about the war, I think because he was a very religious person and he must have done some very bad things.

I also had a step uncle, who would be best described as a redneck. I was totaly certain that he never left the village he lived in in his lifetime I wasn't even sure if he ever left his Farm ;-) But one day he told me that he was also POWed and transferred to California. He told me that the US treated them excellently and that it was like holidays to him. I'd never tought he even knew what California is *lol*.

Last funny note: I live in Berlin and there are tours trough the bunkers of WWII (great btw.). The guide told us that after WWII one of those bunkers was remodelled to be a nuclear-resistant shelter. Those modifications did only cost around 1000$ b/c the only thing they did was painting the ceiling white. Felt alot more safe after this lol.
PizzaPill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2011, 02:06 PM   #109
Wamy Einehouse
rack 'em
 
Wamy Einehouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,650
Re: The Second World War

Interesting Wikipedia article about a Private who had the opportunity to kill Hitler in WW1 but chose not to, and Hitler's subsequent interest in him after he was awarded the VC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Tandey

Last edited by Wamy Einehouse; 10-17-2011 at 02:33 PM.
Wamy Einehouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2011, 05:04 PM   #110
Wamy Einehouse
rack 'em
 
Wamy Einehouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,650
Re: The Second World War



Roughly as many people as are in this photo died per week at the peak of the fighting on the Eastern Front.

Last edited by Wamy Einehouse; 11-01-2011 at 05:11 PM.
Wamy Einehouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2011, 07:09 PM   #111
MTT-loser
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 231
Re: The Second World War

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvcicnQL9iY

****in great music too in this clip.
MTT-loser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 08:43 PM   #112
What is folding?
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 92
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wamy Einehouse View Post
.

It's an often over looked part of the Allies conduct during the war as the winners tend to wright the history, but it is always worth remembering that the British killed more civilians in one night in Dresden than died in the entire of the Blitz/V1/V2 campaign against England.
That's not true, where are your sources for this?

I watched an excellent documentary called "The Third Reich: The Rise" and also "The Fall"". They're both on youtube and are worth a watch.

Also I recently read a book called "A detail of history" by Arek Hersh http://www.amazon.co.uk/Detail-Histo...0540377&sr=1-1. I definitely recommend it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTT-loser View Post
Deleted Post Redacted

-- Zurvan
Name calling is pretty childish but I think it's warranted in this case; idiot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wamy Einehouse View Post
Interesting Wikipedia article about a Private who had the opportunity to kill Hitler in WW1 but chose not to, and Hitler's subsequent interest in him after he was awarded the VC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Tandey
Wow, that's pretty amazing. I wonder what Tandey thought of his actions after the outbreak of WWII.

Last edited by Zurvan; 11-05-2011 at 11:22 PM.
What is folding? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 09:49 PM   #113
Turn Prophet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Turn Prophet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Here
Posts: 11,558
Re: The Second World War

Severe lack of modding ITT.
Turn Prophet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2011, 11:21 PM   #114
Zurvan
Retired
 
Zurvan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: On the front porch, yelling at kids
Posts: 32,281
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn Prophet View Post
Severe lack of modding ITT.
Severe lack of posts reports ITT. Thank you for pointing that guy out, whoever did.
Zurvan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2011, 03:26 PM   #115
Wamy Einehouse
rack 'em
 
Wamy Einehouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,650
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by What is folding? View Post
That's not true, where are your sources for this?

I watched an excellent documentary called "The Third Reich: The Rise" and also "The Fall"". They're both on youtube and are worth a watch.
This is orginally from Martin Gilbert in The Second World War, although it seems the figure has been rounded down again by an independent 2010 report to around 25,000, which stands at significantly less than the 40,000 who died it the Blitz (although still more than were killed in London in the whole of the Blitz).

Hamburg lost roughly 50,000 people when destroyed by the latest wiki figures, so the general point is still valid imo.
Wamy Einehouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2011, 11:25 PM   #116
Mandor_TFL
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 730
Re: The Second World War

The blatant bombing of civilian targets was started by the British as retaliation for stray bombs during the Battle of Britain. That being said once the taboo was broken Hitler and Goering became a big fan of bombing London ruthlessly. It also switched the Luftwaffe's focus off of Fighter Command and towards civilian targets. This allowed the British air defence network the time to repair and rearm and eventually end any threat of German invasion.
Mandor_TFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2011, 09:40 AM   #117
Wamy Einehouse
rack 'em
 
Wamy Einehouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,650
Re: The Second World War



Russian Veteran apparently discovering his actual tank was being used as a war memorial.
Wamy Einehouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2011, 01:18 AM   #118
Nut Low
banned
 
Nut Low's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandor_TFL View Post
The blatant bombing of civilian targets was started by the British as retaliation for stray bombs during the Battle of Britain. That being said once the taboo was broken Hitler and Goering became a big fan of bombing London ruthlessly. It also switched the Luftwaffe's focus off of Fighter Command and towards civilian targets. This allowed the British air defence network the time to repair and rearm and eventually end any threat of German invasion.
Uh, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_Blitz
Nut Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2011, 07:10 PM   #119
RLK
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,415
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
I think there's a simple reason for this, and it's may also be the reason the Germans never developed nuclear weapons. It's simply that they thought the war would be won quickly, and there was no need to move forward on any of this other stuff.

Mason
I do not think that explains the chemical weapons decision. I have read two propositions. One was that based on US pesticide research the Germans felt that the Allies either were as advanced as they or would quickly close the gap so that there was no advantage to be gained. Also, Hitler had a brush with poison gas in WWI and did not want to see it used.
RLK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2011, 11:03 PM   #120
bronx bomber
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,110
Re: The Second World War

[QUOTE=RLK;29878656 Also, Hitler had a brush with poison gas in WWI and did not want to see it used.[/QUOTE]

Not trolling but did you ever hear of Zyklon B? If Hitler didn't use it it was because he was afraid of retaliation not because he didn't want to use it. If he was sure the Allies had nothing similar I am sure he would have gassed the Allies once things turned bad for Germany.
bronx bomber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2011, 08:22 PM   #121
Mandor_TFL
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 730
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut Low View Post
The Germans did not fear retaliation by the dutch airforce though. Hitler and Goering purposefully did not bomb London because they knew the British could bomb Berlin in response. Once the British decided to purposefully bomb Berlin Hitler had no reason to not bomb London. And as the Rotterdam Blitz showed, he had no moral quandaries with bombing civilians
Mandor_TFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2011, 08:25 PM   #122
Mandor_TFL
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 730
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by bronx bomber View Post
Not trolling but did you ever hear of Zyklon B? If Hitler didn't use it it was because he was afraid of retaliation not because he didn't want to use it. If he was sure the Allies had nothing similar I am sure he would have gassed the Allies once things turned bad for Germany.
Zyklon B was not used for military purposes. The most compelling reason for why chemical warfare was not used is that it is ineffective against military targets. As shown in WWI chemical agents can be defeated with relatively easy countermeasures. It also is often too unpredictable. Less than 3% of casualties in WWI were due to chemical warfare and it lead to no dramatic victories.
Mandor_TFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2011, 09:02 PM   #123
Nut Low
banned
 
Nut Low's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandor_TFL View Post
The blatant bombing of civilian targets was started by the British as retaliation for stray bombs during the Battle of Britain. That being said once the taboo was broken Hitler and Goering became a big fan of bombing London ruthlessly. It also switched the Luftwaffe's focus off of Fighter Command and towards civilian targets. This allowed the British air defence network the time to repair and rearm and eventually end any threat of German invasion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandor_TFL View Post
The Germans did not fear retaliation by the dutch airforce though. Hitler and Goering purposefully did not bomb London because they knew the British could bomb Berlin in response. Once the British decided to purposefully bomb Berlin Hitler had no reason to not bomb London. And as the Rotterdam Blitz showed, he had no moral quandaries with bombing civilians
The first bolded is the "uh, no." Hitler never had any qualms about hitting civilian targets. None.

The second bolded is a new "uh, no."

The Battle of Britain strategy was sound at first in that the Germans solely went for military targets. They were on the cusp of wiping out the British radar system (without really knowing or understanding the critical importance of it), but then during a night raid the Luftwaffe accidentally bombed civilian targets. This was not part of their plan even though that decision was still a close one. Of course, the story continues that Churchill ordered a raid on Berlin the next day and that so incensed Hitler that he lost his composure and hence focused on civilian targets to the detriment of his cause.

At the time, many militarized nations were toying with the concept of bombing enemies into submission which means whole cities would be carpet bombed until they surrendered.

The English developed this theory, yet never really adopted it. The Germans were intrigued by it and would have likely used that as "Phase B" of their operation after eliminating the proper military targets. However, because the radar system was not wiped out first, the Luftwaffe suffered huge losses and Hilter withdrew.

In sum, Hilter and Goring were not refraining from bombing civilian targets in the U.K. out of fear of reprisal, they refrained because current conditions did not allow for it - the Fighter Command had to be conquered first.
Nut Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2011, 09:06 PM   #124
Nut Low
banned
 
Nut Low's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 18
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wamy Einehouse View Post
This is orginally from Martin Gilbert in The Second World War, although it seems the figure has been rounded down again by an independent 2010 report to around 25,000, which stands at significantly less than the 40,000 who died it the Blitz (although still more than were killed in London in the whole of the Blitz).

Hamburg lost roughly 50,000 people when destroyed by the latest wiki figures, so the general point is still valid imo.
Those numbers are totally meaningless as it is not a proper "apples" to "apples" comparison.

It's nice to throw numbers around, but not when it is at the expense of proper context.
Nut Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2011, 08:02 PM   #125
Wamy Einehouse
rack 'em
 
Wamy Einehouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,650
Re: The Second World War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut Low View Post
Those numbers are totally meaningless as it is not a proper "apples" to "apples" comparison.

It's nice to throw numbers around, but not when it is at the expense of proper context.
I'm curious what context you mean. The argument you make in the post before seems inherently wrong as the Germans could easily have attacked military targets by day and civilian by night in the early stages of the Battle of Britain had they no qualms.
Wamy Einehouse is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online