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Originally Posted by wellju
That's so wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start.
First of all, the definition of a civilian is quite simple.
Someone who does not work in military service.
That is an original picture of the ballot paper as people got to vote if Austria will join the German Reich 1938 and means "Do you agree to the German reunification and to the help from our Führer".
The vote wasn't in closed cabins, but in front of armed soldiers who would shoot you on the spot if you voted "nein" which means no.
No wonder 99,73% voted yes. Jews weren't allowed to vote in the first place.
Do you even have the slightest clue about how many assassination attempts were made on Nazi officers, not only Adolf Hitler?
Do you have any idea about how many people were involved in underground movements against the Nazi regime all over Europe?
Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't make such misanthropic comments.
Quite conveniently, you omitted the first part of my post:
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Maybe so, maybe not. In any case, the definition of the term "civilian" for the purposes of a WWII discussion demands discussion. The citizens of Germany and Japan were complicit in starting and maintaining the war. The citizens of Germany were complicit, either directly or indirectly in allowing the holocaust.
I was merely opening the topic for discussion since it is not as black and white as you like it to appear. The Allieds had to make some very difficult decisions which were made necessary by the aggressors.
I am quite certain you will be able to find other instances of forced submission, but that does not prove your point, either. After the war, many German and Japanese citizens aimed to distance themselves from their (direct or passive) involvement in the war, so you will find many accounts portraying them as pure victims/civilians.
Again, it is not that simple, and because of the events the world found itself in, these people are not on par with the citizens of the non-agressor countries and it is certainly arguable that their loss was justifiable collateral damage at worst.
You also omit the final portion of my post:
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When you are partially responsible for putting a chain of events in motion and you do nothing to stop it once it gets going, you are not innocent. Any real innocent people adversely affected are their responsibility, not that of the parties fighting and losing their own people's lives in order to end the war
Is it your opinion that the German and Japanese citizens were not complicit in starting and maintaining the war? Is it your position that the German citizens were not complicit in allowing the holocaust?
Given your "simple" definition of civilian, it was not exactly clear who was and was not working in the military service. The definition is not very clear, especially since a lot of "civilian" roles directly supported the military.
I think you should restructure your approach to my statement; I don't appreciate your hostile tone when I am merely trying to participate in a discussion. These questions do not lend themselves to easy answers. Just because one attempts an answer that you do not agree with, does not mean that a hostile response is warranted.
Like many Americans, I am of German descent. However, it takes a lot for me to be sympathetic with the German people's plight during and at the close of the war. They go right to the back of the line when I'm handing out my sympathies. Yes, they suffered dearly; yes, a lot of "innocent" "civilians" died and lost everything.
Join the club.
Last edited by Oski; 04-08-2011 at 12:35 AM.