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Old 03-25-2018, 11:47 AM   #251
DoOrDoNot
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Re: Losing WW II

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Originally Posted by microbet View Post
Wow. How is that not lumping Holland in with Austria and how were you not speculating about whether Hitler knew about the holocaust?
The only thing I speculate on is that Hitler did know and did order the holocaust (3rd time I've said it now). What I don't have is historical certainty on the matter, because there is no hard evidence either way. That's the difference between speculation and certainty. One has evidence backing it up and one doesn't.

Similarly, saying Holland and Austria both had groups of nazi collaborators does not "lump Holland in with Austria" (whatever that means). I would agree with you if you said Austria had a higher proportion of Nazi sympathizers than Holland, but that does not in any way take away from the fact that both countries had collaborators.

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You're also both really thin skinned. Adios taking offense there is insane and, while I can imagine why dodn would be whining here, he shouldn't be.
I guess it's possible you don't see what you do pretty consistently in your posts, but it would be baffling to me if you don't do it on purpose.
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Old 03-25-2018, 12:08 PM   #252
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Re: Losing WW II

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Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot View Post
The only thing I speculate on is that Hitler did know and did order the holocaust (3rd time I've said it now). What I don't have is historical certainty on the matter, because there is no hard evidence either way. That's the difference between speculation and certainty. One has evidence backing it up and one doesn't.

Similarly, saying Holland and Austria both had groups of nazi collaborators does not "lump Holland in with Austria" (whatever that means). I would agree with you if you said Austria had a higher proportion of Nazi sympathizers than Holland, but that does not in any way take away from the fact that both countries had collaborators.



I guess it's possible you don't see what you do pretty consistently in your posts, but it would be baffling to me if you don't do it on purpose.
If you don't know what "lump Holland in with Austria" means, how can you assert adios didn't do it? It's pretty simple though. He listed them together with no distinction, which I think is not fair as the Nazis were generally received very differently in each country. I'm quite sure every occupied country in the history of the world has had some collaborators. (Though the general characterization of 'occupied' may not even fit with Austria.)

As for your post, my tone was a bit accusatory, but the suggestion that Hitler might not have known about the camps was somewhat shocking.

I don't remember arguing with you in politics, but that's a different forum a different culture and people's opinions and preferences and even how they reflect on personal character are not just fair game, but quite relevant there.
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Old 03-25-2018, 01:12 PM   #253
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Re: Losing WW II

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If you don't know what "lump Holland in with Austria" means, how can you assert adios didn't do it? It's pretty simple though. He listed them together with no distinction
So everyone has to add caveats to their statements of fact now so that you don't draw false conclusions about what they're saying? Dont be ridiculous. He doesnt have to make distinctions. He made no general statement about either country whatsoever.

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, which I think is not fair as the Nazis were generally received very differently in each country.
Statement of fact is just that. If you draw generalities from them either for yourself or from what other people are saying, that's your problem.

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I'm quite sure every occupied country in the history of the world has had some collaborators. (Though the general characterization of 'occupied' may not even fit with Austria.)
He wasn't talking about terms of degree. If you wanna talk about it though, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Hungary, Denmark, and others all had multiple thousands of volunteers in SS divisions. In fact, the SS was around 50% foreign volunteers as the war progressed. Belgium and Holland also had quite popular fascist parties pre war with the Dutch one winning 4-10% of the vote in pre war elections 1931-1939.

As far as Austria goes, it's pretty clear you need to do some reading If you think the reason for unification was solely massive Nazi factions in Austria.

"Prior to the*Anschluss, there had been strong support from people of all backgrounds – not just Nazis – in both Austria and Germany for a union of the two countries.
The idea of an*Anschluss*(a united Austria and Germany that would form a "Greater Germany")[a]*began after the*unification of Germany*excluded Austria and the German Austrians from the Prussian-dominated*German Empire*in 1871. Following the end of*World War I*with the fall of the*Austro-Hungarian Empire, in 1918, the newly formed*Republic of German-Austria*attempted to form a union with Germany, but the*Treaty of Saint Germain*(10 September 1919) and the*Treaty of Versailles*(28 June 1919) forbade both the union and the continued use of the name "German-Austria" (Deutschösterreich); and stripped Austria of some of its territories, such as the*Sudetenland."

You can see from this alone that anschluss was a strongly desired outcome for 50 years before the Nazi party even existed!

Anschluss was widely desired in Austria, but that doesn't either take away from the fact that the anschluss of 1938 was the direct result of a Nazi coup d'etat. The Nazi party was small, and Schushnigg did everything he could to stop Hitler from the hostile takeover of Austria including announcing a plebiscite on unification that almost certainly would have failed. Hitler invaded Austria to prevent the plebiscite because he knew it would have failed, which pretty much murders your conclusion that "Austria accepted him with open arms."


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As for your post, my tone was a bit accusatory, but the suggestion that Hitler might not have known about the camps was somewhat shocking.
For someone who so often draws quick, simple and unjustified conclusions despite the complexity of the subject matter, this isn't surprising to me. What is really not fair though is drawing conclusions about people's beliefs when you don't know anything about them. Please stop doing that.

Last edited by DoOrDoNot; 03-25-2018 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 03-25-2018, 05:11 PM   #254
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Re: Losing WW II

Which is it, Germany was welcomed into Austria because they had wanted unification for 50 years or my suggestion that Hitler was welcomed with open arms was murdered?

I didn't suggest anything at all about adios' beliefs other than the degree to which Holland resisted invasion and the degree to which Austria resisted "invasion" were so far apart that it was not fair to just lump them together in a list of collaborators. My reaction was mostly based on some personal experience having nothing to do with what I think about adios. I spent a few weeks in Rotterdam and saw the extent of damage (mostly covered by post war construction, but still clear). Austria wasn't invaded in that manner.

What you're doing is disingenuous because I'm sure if you were tasked to compare and contrast the degree of collaboration and integration of the population and military and political structures of with the Nazi regime between Austria and Holland you could put out a hundred thousand words demonstrating a stark contrast.

What did I say that hurt your feeling so much in P? Dragging grudges from one forum to another is really pathetic. Stop being such a baby.

Last edited by microbet; 03-25-2018 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 03-25-2018, 08:08 PM   #255
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Re: Losing WW II

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Which is it, Germany was welcomed into Austria because they had wanted unification for 50 years or my suggestion that Hitler was welcomed with open arms was murdered?

I didn't suggest anything at all about adios' beliefs other than the degree to which Holland resisted invasion and the degree to which Austria resisted "invasion" were so far apart that it was not fair to just lump them together in a list of collaborators. My reaction was mostly based on some personal experience having nothing to do with what I think about adios. I spent a few weeks in Rotterdam and saw the extent of damage (mostly covered by post war construction, but still clear). Austria wasn't invaded in that manner.

What you're doing is disingenuous because I'm sure if you were tasked to compare and contrast the degree of collaboration and integration of the population and military and political structures of with the Nazi regime between Austria and Holland you could put out a hundred thousand words demonstrating a stark contrast.

What did I say that hurt your feeling so much in P? Dragging grudges from one forum to another is really pathetic. Stop being such a baby.
Austria wasn't invaded in that matter because the Austrian army was ordered to stand down. Had they not been, it can be relatively certain they would have fought to retain their sovereignty like they were trained to do. The key fact is that Hitler invaded the country because their leader planned a plebiscite on unification, and Hitler believed it would fail.

You didn't hurt my feelings at all, I just don't want historical discussions derailed with the same kind of misrepresentations and childish insinuations that were so common to your posts on the politics board. Obviously I'm not alone.
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Old 03-26-2018, 06:05 AM   #256
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Re: Losing WW II

Bold added for emphasis:

The question:
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Originally Posted by tabbaker View Post
I've got a dumb question. How was Germany able to control so much of Europe? Was their army just that much bigger than everyone else? Seems like they would be stretched extremely thin trying to control all the countries they were in.
The answer:
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Originally Posted by adios View Post
The Nazi’s had collaborators in France, Holland, Austria, etc. who were more than willing to sell out their native countries.


In microbet's reality this answer amounts to equating the Anschluss with the Nazi invasion of the Netherlands. That is completely ridiculous.

The question posed by Tabbaker was how did the Nazi's maintain control of the countries they took control of. Clearly the Nazis had Dutch collaborators that helped the Nazis in their occupation of the Netherlands.

Here's an interesting article criticizing the Netherlands for white washing their WWII history.

THE NETHERLANDS: A COUNTRY WHICH REFUSES TO ADMIT ITS GUILT TOWARD THE JEWS
Quote:
The above cannot be viewed as unrelated to the consistent Dutch refusal to admit the disinterest of the Dutch wartime government and Queen Wilhelmina in exile in London regarding the fate of Dutch Jews. The same goes for the massive collaboration of Dutch bureaucracy with the Germans in the occupied Netherlands.

Last edited by adios; 03-26-2018 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:32 AM   #257
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Re: Losing WW II

adios,

In adios' reality you are also taking this very personally. Sad. I thought all of you behaved differently in the History forum. Your points there are taken and may have merit, but are opposing. Which is it, should Austria and Holland not be lumped in together (Anschluss and all) or should they be (the Dutch collaborated to a similar degree)?
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:32 PM   #258
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Re: Losing WW II

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adios,

In adios' reality you are also taking this very personally. Sad. I thought all of you behaved differently in the History forum. Your points there are taken and may have merit, but are opposing. Which is it, should Austria and Holland not be lumped in together (Anschluss and all) or should they be (the Dutch collaborated to a similar degree)?
Neither. The world is not black or white.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:13 AM   #259
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Re: Losing WW II

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Neither. The world is not black or white.
Consider my world rocked.
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