Thomas Jefferson is an iconic figure of American history. The author of the Declaration of Independence and the third President of the United States, his image is carved into Mt. Rushmore in the Black Hills. He is often credited as being one of the most influential of the Founding Brothers. Being a Jeffersonian is to believe that less government is more, and that the strength of our Republic lies in the character of our yeoman farmers and craftsmen.

But recent revisionist historians have challenged the conventional portrait we have of Jefferson. Specifically, he is accused of being a plagiarist ( most of the ideas and phrases of the Declaration were taken from other authors), of being a narcissist ( he never denied himself anything he wanted), a physical coward ( in his only confrontation with the enemy in the Revolutionary war he turned tail and ran), he was a serial rapist who took the slave sister of his first wife's half sister and began fathering children with her when she was brought to him in France when she was 16. He fathered at least 5 children with her and kept them all as slaves, never freeing them. Politically, he was a man who hired tricksters to attempt to ruin the reputation of his chief rival, John Adams, with lies and innuendo.

For those interested I recommend "American Sphinx:The Character of Thomas Jefferson" by Joseph Ellis and "The Hemingses of Monticello", by Annette Gordon-Reed.

So who was the the real Jefferson - Saint or black hearted sinner? I am interested in all opinions but defend them with facts.

I read a lot of revolutionary era history and have read American Sphinx.

I think Jefferson was a weasel. He was exactly the wrong man for the times in my estimation. I am much more in the Hamiltonian camp that at the time we needed a very strong federal presence. But as Hamilton predicted once he was president he would enjoy the power of it and likely do some good things. Luckily we got a strong federal government and were able to grow and prosper. But of course things have gone too far We could definitely use some of those Jeffersonian smaller government principles nowadays.

I’m not familiar with all these things you’re talking about. As for the plagiarist claim, people in the 18th century had completely different standards than we do today. It wasn’t at all uncommon to borrow others ideas, phrases, and words. It is true that the Declaration of Independence, for example, is not particularly original to Jefferson. The ideas stated in it weren’t necessarily exclusively his, yet he did eloquently phrase them.

He probably did have little self-discipline and rarely denied himself any worldly pleasure. He died deeply in debt.

Not sure about the coward thing.

He did sexually assault his slaves. I guess one could make the case that it was likely a consensual relationship but that’s a hard case to make considering he was her master with complete power over her.

As far as political tricks and machinations, all politicians basically do this. I don’t find it that offensive.

I also tend to hold Jefferson in pretty high regard. I've got a copy of his "Bible" on my bookshelf along side several books on the "revolutionaries." The things I've managed to find from the families of his slaves also seemed to portray him in a positive light. My particular point of contention (and the only one I have really) deals with his attitude toward Native Americans. He appears in a few things I've read to be an absolute conqueror with his opinions about what to do with the human beings who were living here already.

Other than that, many of his personal letters to friends and family make me lean toward liking him quite a bit.

I've held the belief that Hamilton is essential pure evil, and Jefferson his holy nemesis. The opposite of yours :P

General, if you haven't already done so, I would suggest a reading of Ron Chernow's "Alexander Hamilton". It may not change your opinion, but it is an absolutely excellent and authoritative work on Hamilton. At the very least, Hamilton was an astounding self-made man; a man of enormous talents and enormous flaws. He was a fascinating individual.

It is not an either/or type of question; nor, can it be answered in that way.

I will touch on a few of your comments. Jefferson was no more a plagiarist than say Plato or Cicero or thousands of others that have built on, or recast, or amplified previous ideas, aside from coming up with original concepts (Jefferson had an assembly line nail factory, and invented a special plow for the soils of his native Virginia, and was no slouch as an architect, designing his own residence and the University of Virginia for example).

Jefferson was also a product of his time and place, the age of enlightenment, which despite the name, puts some constrains on how to judge his character and place in history. I suggest you need to rethink your stance.

The presidential campaign of 1800 was one of the most bitterly fought and acrimonious in American History and was actually decided by a vote in the House of Representatives. See the links below.

http://americanhistory.about.com/od/elections/p/election1800.htm

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-08-22/l...n?_s=PM:LIVING

Politics is a dirty business and contaminates all who participate; from Solon, to Sulla, to Jefferson and Adams.

Slavery had many legal/ownership complications to it. Jefferson freed the five (?) slaves that he fathered with Sally Hemings, a few others were allowed to run away,(see Dumas Malone, The Sage of Monticello). No others were freed; a large majority of his slaves he inherited through his wife Martha. Jefferson was a spendthrift (and had some bad luck as a farmer) and died deeply in debt which was a compelling financial reason why he did not free his slaves.

As to the sexual relationship; I do not consider it any of my business, though moralizing busybodies love to air out these kinds of tantalizing and scandalous details to titillate the moronic public. There is little solid evidence to go on as to what the relationship actually was and speculation is rampant. This type of activity went on in the South and is no secret. My opinion after much reading about Jefferson is that the relationship was not abusive. But that is my own personal opinion.

If you wish to know more about Jefferson I suggest, Jefferson Writings, put out by the Library of America. Aside from his autobiography, A summary View of The Rights of British America and Notes on the State of Virginia and other papers, this volume contains numerous personal letters of Jefferson, which is about as close as you can come to a personal view of his character that there is. I highly recommend this volume. I also have read American Sphinx, which I thought quite well done, and Thomas Jefferson Author of America by that turncoat Christopher Hitchens, and the Dumas volumes. These materials are the references to my above points and opinions of Jefferson the man.

-Zeno

That is one of my favorite biographies and Chernow one of my favorite authors. It definitely had a lot to do with putting me in the pro Hamilton camp even though I already had much admiration for Hamilton from other sources before even reading it. But almost everything I have read about the era puts in the anti-Jefferson camp.

A good and accessible book about the 1800 election is:

http://www.amazon.com/America-Afire-...2864742&sr=1-1

I believe if you reread my OP you will see that I took no personal stance on Jefferson, either pro or con. I was merely trying to initiate a discussion on a historical figure who I find complex, contradictory and fascinating. If you took my listing of some of the revisionist positions on Jefferson as "my stance", you are mistaken. My personal view of Jefferson is that he was a great, but deeply flawed, individual who deserves his position in the pantheon of the Founding Brothers.

Jefferson as writer ... A+

Jefferson as Virginia Governor ... not so good, thank God the generals were running the war that was going on at the time.

Jefferson as college founder ... A+

Jefferson as President ... better than as Governor, but still mediocre. Thankfully, it was a quiet time, so the nation didn't suffer too much from his decisions.

Fabulously interesting op, OP.

I had no idea that Jefferson was such an egoist. One day I will have to read up more on him because you've provoked my curiosity.

I was mistaken. Point taken. Posting too late at night can have drawbacks.

-Zeno

Although, I quite enjoyed the argument you thought you were having.

No problem.Your defense of Mr. Jefferson is well developed and understandable. In my 6 plus decades I have often wished I could retract statements made after the witching hour and several ales deep into the evening. I am simply grateful that the new history forum exists - and I look forward to watching it develop. I hope that I can make a meaningful contribution.

Thomas Jefferson was a pussy. Charlie Sheen

Sometimes I think those are the best kind.

-Zeno