Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

History Discussion of History up to Circa 1990

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-12-2012, 02:17 PM   #26
DoTheMath
Pooh-Bah
 
DoTheMath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At my computer
Posts: 4,691
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack 0' Clubs View Post
... one of the major mistakes of the era was on the part of the British who would not countenance an increase in military production in the lead up to the war. France made the same mistake too.
If this was accurate. it would have indeed been a big mistake. In fact the British made signficant increases in military expenditures in the years leading up to the war. The problems were: the earlier reductions, that they didn't start rebuilding soon enough, and relied on a policy of appeasement too long.
DoTheMath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 04:44 AM   #27
JayTeeMe
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
JayTeeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The night shift
Posts: 27,738
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Not surrendering sooner
JayTeeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 02:29 PM   #28
guivre1408
veteran
 
guivre1408's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,362
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by abcyrillic View Post
Indeed it was a realistic plan, he was 40KM from Moscow, almost captured Stalingrad, blockade of Leningrad (Saint Petersburg) for 872 days, almost conquered Azerbaijans oil, e.t.c.
But, he didn't expected that resistance, and so strong partisan movement.
Actually he managed to conquer Caucasus oil pretty easily, but that was because the russian destroyed their oil well and went back to Moscow/stalingrad.

There comes Hitler's mistake, the country was running out of oil, winter was coming and he rushed stalingrad instead of getting back home bombing the french and british.

Once in stalingrad, they couldn't retreat because of the flooded/snowy road and oil shortage.
guivre1408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 04:16 PM   #29
Husker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Husker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holsten's Diner
Posts: 11,729
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by guivre1408 View Post
There comes Hitler's mistake, the country was running out of oil, winter was coming and he rushed stalingrad instead of getting back home bombing the french and british.
He'd already defeated the French.
Husker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 04:44 PM   #30
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,261
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by StimAbuser View Post

2)I'm not to well studied on history so I don't know if attacking Greece was necessary, but their 6 week war with Greece that delayed the SU invasion for 6 weeks may of well cost them a victory in the SU.
Mussolini attacked Greece without Hitler's prior approval or knowledge. The Italians were quickly repulsed, but Hitler's hand was forced as he had to come to the aid of his ally.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 04:59 PM   #31
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,261
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

1. Perhaps the biggest mistake was not being able to appreciate the importance of the Suez Canal and thus not giving Rommel the support he requested to do the job in Africa. This mistake was there from the outset, but consistently manifested itself each time Rommel requested support and was denied.

2. Invading Crete was also a big mistake: it's strategic value was vastly overestimated and to take it, Hilter basically expended his entire paratroops force.

3. Barbarossa. Even though the idea seems absurd; it could have been pulled off (even without the taking of the Suez Canal, first) if there was a more coherent plan and a plan that was actually followed. Instead, (as everyone knows) Hitler attacked in three army groups which diminished their effect. A better plan would have seen the Germans go directly for Moscow and then on to the Caucuses (and bypassing Stalingrad itself, except to take control of its river traffic). Also, once Barbarossa started to unfold and Russia began to provide some substantive defenses, Hitler allowed the Russians to dictate his tactics. He switched over from employing mobile tactics to frontal assault - leading to a war of attrition that he could not win.

4. Related to 3. Hitler could have also used Japan better as an ally. As long as Japan kept up a force in numbers on the Russian's Eastern front, Stalin would have had to keep his troops there. However, Japan moved them out thus freeing up much-needed (and significant) reinforcements to defend Moscow. If Japan held off on their troop movements for a few months, Moscow probably would have fallen.

Of course, a lot of the other suggestions in this thread are quite valid, especially those criticizing Hitler for constantly overriding his field commanders - especially those that called for strategic withdrawals at certain points.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2012, 06:59 AM   #32
Truthsayer
banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,255
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

How to win a world war in the 1940s:

1. Focus all your energy on removing the enemies closest to you and controlling their territory
2. Go after territories further away

Hitler succeeded admirably at step one, but didn't finish the job. He let a gigantic world superpower and declared, motivated enemy remain functional just 100 miles of his shores, while he went after a distant powerful unmotivated enemy he had a truce with.

Everything that went wrong for Hitler went wrong because of Britain. With Britain gone there was no credible threat, no counterattack he could not repel and no European country he could not take once he consolidated his hold.
Truthsayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 02:59 AM   #33
dan233
adept
 
dan233's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 865
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

3.Dont get parkinson's
dan233 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 03:23 PM   #34
thekid345
banned
 
thekid345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Support Jahi Mcmath
Posts: 3,620
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Posted by oski . "Related to 3. Hitler could have also used Japan better as an ally. As long as Japan kept up a force in numbers on the Russian's Eastern front, Stalin would have had to keep his troops there. However, Japan moved them out thus freeing up much-needed (and significant) reinforcements to defend Moscow. If Japan held off on their troop movements for a few months, Moscow probably would have fallen"


It should be noted Japan was not interested in any substantial joint military or even economic actions with Germany. The alliance was limited between Japan and Germany. During the war leaders of both sides decieved each other by saying they were winning there respective battles. In fact when Germany surrenderd to the allies in the summer of 1945, Japan denounced the surrender as treason and imprisoned all Germans in Japan and confiscated there land.

Hitler wanted Japan to attack the Soviet Far east but Richard Sorge (former USSR Spy) revealed Japan's unwillingness to cooperate with Hitler against the USSR in September 1941

From wiki- "Sorge advised the Red Army on September 14, 1941, that the Japanese were not going to attack the Soviet Union until:

1. Moscow was captured
2. the size of the Kwantung Army was three times that of the Soviet Union's Far Eastern forces
3. a civil war had started in Siberia

"Toward the end of September 1941, Sorge transmitted information that Japan would not initiate hostilities against the USSR in the East, thereby freeing Red Army divisions stationed in Siberia for the defence of Moscow"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sorge

Last edited by thekid345; 11-21-2012 at 03:32 PM.
thekid345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 04:43 AM   #35
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
Posted by oski . "Related to 3. Hitler could have also used Japan better as an ally. As long as Japan kept up a force in numbers on the Russian's Eastern front, Stalin would have had to keep his troops there. However, Japan moved them out thus freeing up much-needed (and significant) reinforcements to defend Moscow. If Japan held off on their troop movements for a few months, Moscow probably would have fallen"


It should be noted Japan was not interested in any substantial joint military or even economic actions with Germany. The alliance was limited between Japan and Germany. During the war leaders of both sides decieved each other by saying they were winning there respective battles. In fact when Germany surrenderd to the allies in the summer of 1945, Japan denounced the surrender as treason and imprisoned all Germans in Japan and confiscated there land.

Hitler wanted Japan to attack the Soviet Far east but Richard Sorge (former USSR Spy) revealed Japan's unwillingness to cooperate with Hitler against the USSR in September 1941

From wiki- "Sorge advised the Red Army on September 14, 1941, that the Japanese were not going to attack the Soviet Union until:

1. Moscow was captured
2. the size of the Kwantung Army was three times that of the Soviet Union's Far Eastern forces
3. a civil war had started in Siberia

"Toward the end of September 1941, Sorge transmitted information that Japan would not initiate hostilities against the USSR in the East, thereby freeing Red Army divisions stationed in Siberia for the defence of Moscow"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sorge
Yes, quite understood. However, my point had nothing to do with asking Japan to participate by invading Russia. I was merely suggesting that Hitler could have perhaps finessed Japan into keeping a military presence in northeast Asia for a few months longer to hold the Russian troops in place.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 11:08 AM   #36
thekid345
banned
 
thekid345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Support Jahi Mcmath
Posts: 3,620
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
Yes, quite understood. However, my point had nothing to do with asking Japan to participate by invading Russia. I was merely suggesting that Hitler could have perhaps finessed Japan into keeping a military presence in northeast Asia for a few months longer to hold the Russian troops in place.
Yes this and Japan's "go south" mentality after they lost the Battle of Lake Khasan in 1938 coupled with there ineffectiveness in Mongolia. After 1938 it was Japan's goal to focus just about everything on the war vs China, and of course allied occupations in the Pacific

Of course the neutrality pact of 1941 between the USSR and the Empire of Japan would later be denounced in 1945, when the USSR finally declared war on Japan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%...t#Denunciation

This action would be one of the reasons for the tension between the USA and USSR and the eventual Cold War imo as it acted in violation of the Yalta conference.

But in the end you are correct Oski. And imo if Japan would not have invaded China and instead used those forces to create a two prong attack on the USSR in conjuction with the Germans.... I believe the Axis powers would win the war. None the less Japans war with China was sort of inevitable and seemingly Japan had no choice but to invade China

Last edited by thekid345; 11-22-2012 at 11:38 AM.
thekid345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 08:22 PM   #37
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
Yes this and Japan's "go south" mentality after they lost the Battle of Lake Khasan in 1938 coupled with there ineffectiveness in Mongolia. After 1938 it was Japan's goal to focus just about everything on the war vs China, and of course allied occupations in the Pacific

Of course the neutrality pact of 1941 between the USSR and the Empire of Japan would later be denounced in 1945, when the USSR finally declared war on Japan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%...t#Denunciation

This action would be one of the reasons for the tension between the USA and USSR and the eventual Cold War imo as it acted in violation of the Yalta conference.

But in the end you are correct Oski. And imo if Japan would not have invaded China and instead used those forces to create a two prong attack on the USSR in conjuction with the Germans.... I believe the Axis powers would win the war. None the less Japans war with China was sort of inevitable and seemingly Japan had no choice but to invade China
Again, I was not saying anything about a two-pronged attack. I was talking about having Japan delaying their attack into China for a few months and just keep their troops in place at the Russian border while the attack on Moscow was ongoing.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 11:43 AM   #38
expat
journeyman
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 246
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

No chance of that since Japan invaded China in 1937 - 4 years before Germany invaded the Soviet Union.
expat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 11:59 AM   #39
thekid345
banned
 
thekid345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Support Jahi Mcmath
Posts: 3,620
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
Again, I was not saying anything about a two-pronged attack. I was talking about having Japan delaying their attack into China for a few months and just keep their troops in place at the Russian border while the attack on Moscow was ongoing.
yes my mistake. I did notice you said Japan should have kept there Kwantung army on the border. My take on the issue was that Japan should have indeed invaded Russia.

But of course as expat pointed out the inevitability of war with China prevented this action.
thekid345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 12:01 PM   #40
expat
journeyman
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 246
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

For your scenario to work Japan would have had to delay the attack on Pearl Harbour.

The Imperial Navy wouldn't do that because their strategic reserves on oil were running low because of the US embargo and trade sanctions.
They believed they needed to go in 1941 or they wouldn't be able to wage war at all.
expat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 01:10 AM   #41
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by expat View Post
For your scenario to work Japan would have had to delay the attack on Pearl Harbour.

The Imperial Navy wouldn't do that because their strategic reserves on oil were running low because of the US embargo and trade sanctions.
They believed they needed to go in 1941 or they wouldn't be able to wage war at all.
Expat: I was using the prior guy's term "Invading China." Prior to that I simply stated the troops were at the border. Read all the books you want about the invasion of Moscow and you will find out where Stalin's reinforcements came from, when they came, and why they came.

If those reinforcements were not pulled from the Russia/Japan border, Moscow probably falls.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2012, 07:01 AM   #42
expat
journeyman
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 246
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like I totally disagreed with you.

It's true that if Japan had kept the Kwantung army threatening the Russian border then the Siberian divisions would not have been transferred to the Moscow front.
In that case, Moscow falls and with it the main strategic railway hubs. Given the Soviet railway system of the time (all main railroutes go via Moscow - much like the French rail system all goes via Paris) this would have severely disrupted the movement of supplies and troops.

My point was that given Japan's strategic imperative to secure oil supplies and other raw materials in the face of the US trade sanctions or risk surrender (not a Japanese characteristic), they viewed the US as the primary enemy so co-operation with Germany was not on their agenda.

Veering back to the thread main topic:
A major strategic mistake was Hitler declaring war on the US in the aftermath of Pearl Harbour.
If he hadn't done that, then Roosevelt was have had no choice politically but to focus most, if not all, his attention on the defeat of Japan. So potentially less aid to the UK, no US bombing offensive on Germany, no Arctic convoys providing supplies to Russia, no Torch invasion, no Overlord.

Last edited by expat; 11-24-2012 at 07:03 AM. Reason: spelling
expat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2012, 06:47 PM   #43
superleeds
Pooh-Bah
 
superleeds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ooh, you lucky bastard
Posts: 4,070
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthsayer View Post
How to win a world war in the 1940s:

1. Focus all your energy on removing the enemies closest to you and controlling their territory
2. Go after territories further away

Hitler succeeded admirably at step one, but didn't finish the job. He let a gigantic world superpower and declared, motivated enemy remain functional just 100 miles of his shores, while he went after a distant powerful unmotivated enemy he had a truce with.

Everything that went wrong for Hitler went wrong because of Britain. With Britain gone there was no credible threat, no counterattack he could not repel and no European country he could not take once he consolidated his hold.
I think this was his biggest mistake too.
superleeds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 04:39 PM   #44
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,261
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by expat View Post
Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like I totally disagreed with you.

It's true that if Japan had kept the Kwantung army threatening the Russian border then the Siberian divisions would not have been transferred to the Moscow front.
In that case, Moscow falls and with it the main strategic railway hubs. Given the Soviet railway system of the time (all main railroutes go via Moscow - much like the French rail system all goes via Paris) this would have severely disrupted the movement of supplies and troops.

My point was that given Japan's strategic imperative to secure oil supplies and other raw materials in the face of the US trade sanctions or risk surrender (not a Japanese characteristic), they viewed the US as the primary enemy so co-operation with Germany was not on their agenda.

Veering back to the thread main topic:
A major strategic mistake was Hitler declaring war on the US in the aftermath of Pearl Harbour.
If he hadn't done that, then Roosevelt was have had no choice politically but to focus most, if not all, his attention on the defeat of Japan. So potentially less aid to the UK, no US bombing offensive on Germany, no Arctic convoys providing supplies to Russia, no Torch invasion, no Overlord.
I totally agree with that point, however, my point is that Hitler did not even try to do something with Japan on this. That Japan would have been reluctant is a given, but it does not mean nothing could have been done about it.
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 10:44 AM   #45
mpl
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: N.y.C
Posts: 28
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

3-He could have offered the British a carrot after destroying France so quickly.
mpl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2012, 04:06 AM   #46
JayTeeMe
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
JayTeeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The night shift
Posts: 27,738
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Hitler had no way of crossing the English channel.
JayTeeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2012, 10:17 PM   #47
HypersionSD
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 167
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

In a way the 40 campaign against France doomed Germany. Before France Hitler was a political genius. His ability to play the 3 way cold war(west, communist and fascist) to his advantage was amazing.
After France was defeat so quickly and easily Hitler assumed he had an unstoppable army and he didn't have to play politic so well. So much so that he assumed that his alliance could fight the other two simultaneously and win.
HypersionSD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 03:18 AM   #48
Double Eagle
Health Care Thread Czar
 
Double Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Pullin the Plug on Grannie
Posts: 8,323
Other than the obvious, not treating that Ukrainians as allies was a huge mistake. Also getting sucked into Africa when he knew he was going into Russia was a disaster. There was no way he had the resources to occupy North Africa while Britain remained unconquered and the US could enter the war at any time.
Double Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2012, 05:49 PM   #49
Oski
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Oski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Anti-Vermin Seed
Posts: 13,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Eagle View Post
Other than the obvious, not treating that Ukrainians as allies was a huge mistake. Also getting sucked into Africa when he knew he was going into Russia was a disaster. There was no way he had the resources to occupy North Africa while Britain remained unconquered and the US could enter the war at any time.
Rommel requested 4 armor divisions; Hitler reluctantly gave him one as well as a light armor division.

I believe the facts suggest, with the 4 divisions, Rommel takes the Suez Canal.

The Suez Canal was vitally important and should have been priority 1 for the axis
Oski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2012, 01:12 AM   #50
DoTheMath
Pooh-Bah
 
DoTheMath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At my computer
Posts: 4,691
Re: Hitler's Mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oski View Post
Rommel requested 4 armor divisions; Hitler reluctantly gave him one as well as a light armor division.

I believe the facts suggest, with the 4 divisions, Rommel takes the Suez Canal.

The Suez Canal was vitally important and should have been priority 1 for the axis
Please explain why the Suez Canal was so vitally important to the Axis, and how not capturing it contributed in large measure to their ultimate defeat.

I'm not so sure that giving Rommel the extra 2.5 armored divisions he requested would have helped nearly as much as another flotilla of submarines, a couple of wings of aircraft and a few more surface warships and cargo ships. What battles did Rommel lose because he didn't have more armour? I'd suggest his biggest problem was the logistical difficulty of supplying an army in Egypt from a base 1500 km away at Tripoli, when all the supplies had to first cross the Mediterranean from Europe. Most of the fuel shipped past Malta to the Afrika Korps was consumed trucking it to the front. Adding another 2.5 armoured divisions would have greatly increased his supply difficulties. There is reason to doubt that the Axis had enough shipping available in theatre to transport across the Med the supplies needed by 2.5 more armoured divisions, nor the trucks to move it down the roads once it arrived in Tripoli.
DoTheMath is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online