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Old 01-05-2014, 02:17 PM   #51
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...=143674&page=2

The only known SS unit in Africa was actually a SD detachment, Sonderkommando or Einsatzkommando Tunis, which numbered no more than 100 men and was operational for only six months. All sources on the issue are in agreement about this. It wasn't exactly a powerful outfit.

I find no source whatsoever confirming that this unit carried out any direct killings, even though there are newspaper sources claiming that Jews died in labor camps. The SD did in fact round up Jews for use as forced labor in building fortifications; the same was done, however, with other civilians.

Where and when Arab Muslims saved Jewish communities from these arrests and from the killings you allege? What exactly was done? How many Jews were saved, how many non-Jews were involved, what was the German reaction to this opposition?


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Old 01-05-2014, 10:08 PM   #52
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

Women like Noor Inayat Khan, who served as an SOE agent in occupied France to work with the French Resistance. She died in doing so refusing to give up her accomplishes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noor_Inayat_Khan

I was also unaware the actions of some immigrant Muslims in Paris, France during WW2, who for example, created documents listing Jews as Muslims. This information was brought to light on my other history forums. I know some Muslims did infact persecute Jews, but one must balance this with the Muslims who fought against Hitler and the Holocaust. The movie Free Men(it can be seen on Netflix) is based on true stories of how Muslims helped to save Jews in Paris, France.

Here’s one they left out of the history textbooks. A recent French film, Free Men, brought to light the remarkable true history of how Muslims gave sanctuary to French Jews in Nazi-occupied Paris during Second World War. An untold “Oscar Schindler” story, the film is inspired by actual events and in this case, our ‘Schindler’ is Si Kaddour Benghabrit, the rector of the Grand Mosque of Paris until 1954.

http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/0...th-muslim-ids/

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Old 01-05-2014, 10:14 PM   #53
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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Originally Posted by Husker View Post
[

No problem but if your going to play that game, from the armchair thread

I wish all Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, all members of all religions were more like the Muslims in WWII who assisted Jews in their escape from Hitler, and the Jews who supported the Muslims and befriended them for doing so. It proves that, as I stated, we are all humans and all capable of compassion. "I don't agree with what you believe, but I'll defend to the death your right to believe it." To paraphrase Voltaire.




---And as has been pointed out all of that needs to be balanced against the millions who served in the Allied forces.



----Taieb el-Okbi was a member of Algerian Islah (Reform) Party, and a friend of the prominent Algerian reformist Abdelhamid Ben Badis, who was tolerant to different religions and cultures. Ben Badis founded and directed the Algerian League of Muslims and Jews. He died before Vichy forces occupied Algeria, but Taieb el-Okbi took his place. Taieb el-Okbi discovered that the leaders of the pro-fascist group the Légion Français des Combattants were planning a Jewish pogrom with the help of Muslim troops. He did everything he could to prevent it and ordered Muslims not to attack Jews. His actions were compared to French archbishops Jules-Géraud Saliège and Pierre-Marie Gerlier, both of whom saved some Jews in France.





---"The Yad Vashem Holocaust museum has named an Egyptian doctor to its list of Righteous Among the Nations - the first Arab to be so honored for rescuing Jews during the Holocaust. Mohamed Helmy and a German friend, Frieda Szturmann, saved a Jewish family when the deportations of Berlin’s Jews began in 1941. "

--- "Following the German occupation in 1943, the Albanian population, in an extraordinary act, refused to comply with the occupier’s orders to turn over lists of Jews residing within the country’s borders. Moreover, the various governmental agencies provided many Jewish families with fake documentation that allowed them to intermingle amongst the rest of the population. The Albanians not only protected their Jewish citizens, but also provided sanctuary to Jewish refugees who had arrived in Albania, when it was still under Italian rule, and now found themselves faced with the danger of deportation to concentration camps."

I can do this too

Husker, we both know some Muslims gave up Jews During WW2, but this most be balanced with the Millions of Muslims who fought against Hitler and the Holocaust, along with Muslims who risked life by disguising Jews as Muslims with false documentation. At the Mosque in Paris, France (while under German occupation) Muslims actually harbored Jews, in my view instances like these are great positive stories for bringing people together.

Underneath the fortress of mosaics and tranquil gardens occupying an entire city block in the Latin Quarter, it is revealed the mosque’s underground caverns once served as a refuge for resistance fighters and French Jews, where they could be provided with certificates of Muslim identity. Meanwhile upstairs, Benghabrit, a wise Algerian-born religious and political leader, was giving tours of the mosque to Nazi officers and their wives, unaware of what was transpiring right under their feet.


http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/0...th-muslim-ids/

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Old 01-05-2014, 10:16 PM   #54
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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My youtube videos were not created by youtube, rather documentations of Jews/Muslims from the WW2 era.
AFAIK, Youtube doesn't create any content. It just appropriates it. I was suggesting that either the creator of the original documentary, or perhaps the person who edited out the credits (and maybe several more minutes of content?) and posted it, was manipulating the presentation of testimony to try to make a case that is not actually supported by the testimony or totality of evidence available.

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Do the Math, did you expect these Arabs to try and kill/injure SS troops while in Paris, France?
No. I don't believe engaging in combat is the only way one qualifies for heroism.

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Do the Math I'm coming from the position of bringing Jews and Muslims together thru positive stories.
Good luck with that. Sadly, I doubt that citation of a few isolated anecdotal incidents will achieve such an aim. The problem, as was raised both here and on the other forum, is that the numerical scale of Muslim heroism saving Jews from the Holocaust is immaterially small, especially when balanced against the similar number of Jews killed by Muslims or due to Muslim betrayals. But the true tale is that the degree of Muslim involvement in sending to or saving from is minuscule (to use your word) compared to the non-involvement of nearly all Muslims in the matter.

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The heroic actions of Arabs/Muslims during WW2 have been largely forgotten,
True enough, and as one poster in the other forum said, that might be the positive value of that thread - to remind people that Muslim-Jewish relations were not always in the state they are today.

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We have to balance the thousands of Muslims who fought for Axis forces compared to the Millions who fought against Hitler and the holocaust.
You're doing it again. First of all, if you are simply comparing headcount, then the correct formulation is "compare the hundreds of thousands who fought for the Axis compared to the millions who fought for the Allies". Give the correct order of magnitude of the comparison and don't use loaded language to describe one side. But secondly, I doubt those numbers mean very much. Very few of the Muslims who fought on the Allied side volunteered freely. Most of those who did were in the Indian Army and volunteered to protect India, not to fight Nazis. And very few Muslims who volunteered for German service were doing so to support Nazism or for anti-Jewish reasons.

Finally, the number of Muslims who fought for each side are not really germane to your original points here, which was rescue of individuals by individual action, not overthrow of regimes by mass military action. When I first raised the issue of Muslim enlistment, I restricted it to the 22K Yugoslav Muslims in the SS, not the many hundreds of thousands who served in the Axis armies worldwide, because of the association of the SS with anti-Jewish oppression, and the involvement of the Yugoslavian Muslim SS with arrests of Jews.

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Also in Albania, at the start of the war there were 200 Jews, and the end of the war there were 2000 Jews.
24 at the 1930 census. Jewish refugees started arriving under King Zog's program before war officially broke out, so the original wave of refugees may well have raised the count above 200 by the time of the Italian invasion. More like a few over 1800 at the end of the war. References to 2000 are rounding to the nearest thousand. 1800 gives us one more digit of precision.

Compare these "sources" with the sort of sources I give. I list primary documents, government records and publications by authorities and historians. You cite works of journalism and entertainment. Turn on a TV (it seems you are in the US) and you will find all sort of "documentaries" about ghosts, aliens, and conspiracy theories. Most of the media exist to sell advertising. They care about audience interest more than accuracy. Controversy is great. Historians OTOH are all about the accurate interpretation of the past. That's not to say that all broadcast documentaries are inaccurate and all historians are correct, but frankly you'll make a more convincing point if a consensus of professional historians backs you up. Rather than seize on an entertaining piece and treat it as unvarnished truth, you should see what multiple reputable historians say about it. If you are indeed in America, spend more time in university libraries and less time on Youtube and Wikipedia.

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Do the Math, here is the other history forum I was talking about

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=143674
Thanks for the link. I've read that forum from time to time because there is a little bit of gold to be panned from amongst the dross. Before it got derailed by a racist, and sidetracked by those with their own agenda, it didn't seem to support your positions here very much. Indeed you got a bit of a rough ride there too for a bit until a couple came riding to your rescue with points that don't really pertain to your original propositions here.

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I'm asking you kindly to not bring up my rgt threads in the armchair general thread.
Too embarrassed? OK, I won't blow your cover if you behave on 2+2. Otherwise, no commitments.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:29 PM   #55
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

Here are the words of a North African Jew, Albert Assouline, who escaped from a German Prison camp and found refuge at the Paris Mosque,

“No fewer than 1,732 resistance fighters found refuge in its underground caverns. These included Muslim escapees but also Christians and Jews. The latter were by far the most numerous.”

These are brave actions in my view and these immigrant Muslims who protected Jews in WW2 France should be commended as Heroes.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:20 PM   #56
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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end more time in university libraries and less time on Youtube and Wikipedia.

Thanks for the link. I've read that forum from time to time because there is a little bit of gold to be panned from amongst the dross. Before it got derailed by a racist, and sidetracked by those with their own agenda, it didn't seem to support your positions here very much. Indeed you got a bit of a rough ride there too for a bit until a couple came riding to your rescue with points that don't really pertain to your original propositions here.

Hey your entitled to your viewpoint, have you thought about posting on armchair to see what folks there think of your views on how Arabs reacted during WW2. There is one guy itt going on about Israel. Thankfully the Mod came in and had this to say,

This thread is about Muslims saving Jews during World War II, it has nothing to do with the modern state of Israel, Orthodox Jews and Muslims in present day UK, liberal political correctness or the rest. If you want to debate this stuff take it to politics central or another forum altogether.

ACG staff




Their are a multitude of posters on ACG who have listed instances of Arabs/Muslims fighting against Axis Powers and the Holocaust. I am so pleased with the responses on this excellent history forum. Which delves into many, many areas of history. It felt so good seeing folks link historic facts of how Arabs/Muslims fought against Nazis and the holocaust.

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Old 01-05-2014, 11:32 PM   #57
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

A response from the Armchair thread

Saide Arifova (c. 1916 – 9 August 2007) was a Crimean Tatar woman from Bakhchisaray, Crimea, Ukraine who saved more than 88 Crimean Jews in 1942–1943,for which she was honored as one of the Righteous Among the Nations. During the Nazi occupation of Crimea during World War II, she worked as a kindergarten director and managed to forge documents, sourcing Jewish children's ethnicity. She also managed to conceal children from Kerch orphanage, who were prepared to be sent to Germany for inhuman medical experimentation. Nazis considered her suspect and tortured her.


Without a doubt, this Muslim woman, Saide Afrove was a hero to humanity.

http://dokter-hanny.blogspot.com/201...ah-crimea.html

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Old 01-05-2014, 11:58 PM   #58
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

Are you a professor of History Do the Math? I thought you previously mentioned that you happen to have much interest in WW2, mainly the areas of Europe, is this correct? As opposed to being a teacher that is.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:58 PM   #59
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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AFAIK, Youtube doesn't create any content. It just appropriates it. I was suggesting that either the creator of the original documentary, or perhaps the person who edited out the credits (and maybe several more minutes of content?) and posted it, was manipulating the presentation of testimony to try to make a case that is not actually supported by the testimony or totality of evidence available.
when I see Jews saying they were protected by X this will be good enough for me
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No. I don't believe engaging in combat is the only way one qualifies for heroism.
Good, well said. The action of the Imam of the Paris Mosque was heroic, setting up a fake gravestone for a Jewish singer, and then knowing that to this day, that gravestone still stands.

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Good luck with that. Sadly, I doubt that citation of a few isolated anecdotal incidents will achieve such an aim. The problem, as was raised both here and on the other forum, is that the numerical scale of Muslim heroism saving Jews from the Holocaust is immaterially small, especially when balanced against the similar number of Jews killed by Muslims or due to Muslim betrayals. But the true tale is that the degree of Muslim involvement in sending to or saving from is minuscule (to use your word) compared to the non-involvement of nearly all Muslims in the matter.
And again, we have to balance how many more Muslims fought with the Allied side as opposed to the Axis side. What is your theseis anyways, that Muslims did not do enough or that they(majority) sided with the Axis forces? Why do you want to go down this route? Under the guise of history or rather being politically correct.
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True enough, and as one poster in the other forum said, that might be the positive value of that thread - to remind people that Muslim-Jewish relations were not always in the state they are today.
Well said, its a shame to see how discrimination comes from both sides today, when for years prior to 1949 Muslims and Jews lived (in many cases) in harmony.

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You're doing it again. First of all, if you are simply comparing headcount, then the correct formulation is "compare the hundreds of thousands who fought for the Axis compared to the millions who fought for the Allies". Give the correct order of magnitude of the comparison and don't use loaded language to describe one side. But secondly, I doubt those numbers mean very much. Very few of the Muslims who fought on the Allied side volunteered freely. Most of those who did were in the Indian Army and volunteered to protect India, not to fight Nazis. And very few Muslims who volunteered for German service were doing so to support Nazism or for anti-Jewish reasons.
Where are these Hundreds of Thousands of Axis soldiers, are they from India or Europe? Or Russia? I'm not using loaded language but rather, I'm trying to gain knowledge on this issue. Wait a second so your saying those in the Indian army were only fighting Axis forces because they were forced too? I highly disagree and would imagine the many brave Indian Muslims who fought against Axis forces would also disagree. Especially the likes of Woman like Noor Inayat Khan, who served as an SOE agent in occupied France to work with the French Resistance. She died in doing so refusing to give up her accomplishes. And the fact that you are using her words to somehow state not enough Indians did something is merely an opinion, as opposed to being anything grounded in fact. As we know Spies, are at risk of dying w/o folks knowing the real reasons and what not, I could imagine there were other Noor Inayat Khans in WW2, a true heroin , A Muslim women who had such incredible bravery.

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Old 01-06-2014, 01:59 PM   #60
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

and there is more

The Muslims

There aren't many stories that show up when one starts to research the Holocaust in the Arab world. At least not ones that speak of heroism that is. Yet when you start to dig a little it isn't hard to find such stories these days. The accounts of Muslims saving Jewish lives are prolific. And they aren't simply confined to North Africa and the Middle East either.


Necdet Kent

In 1943 Mr Kent was given his first real challenge when faced with Germany's genocide of the Jewish people. Having been informed that the Gestapo had loaded 80 Turkish Jews onto a cattle car for deportation, Mr Kent went down to the station. He would later recall that the cattle car bore an inscription that stated "this wagon may be loaded with 20 heads of cattle and 500kgs of grass". Yet here he stood in front of a Gestapo commandant with a cattle car loaded with Jewish prisoners.

However the Germans laughed in his face and told Mr Kent that the Jews were nothing but worthless Jews. Furious, Mr Kent and his assistant boarded the train and refused to get off the train.


Unable to get Mr Kent off the train and realizing that the Turkish diplomat was bound to remain uncompromising in his stance, the Gestapo allowed the 80 Jewish prisoners to get off as well. Mr Kent would later state:

"I would never forget those embraces around our necks and hands ... the expressions of gratitude in the eyes of the people we rescued ... the inner peace I felt when I reached my bed towards morning."

Could one imagine, the courage it took to do this.

Abdol Hossein Sardari

An ever vigilant defender of Iranian Jews, of which there were a sizable amount in Paris, Mr Sardari insured that every Persian Jew he could contact had a viable Iranian passport. For the Persian Jews that did not, Mr Sardari readily forged documents and passports for them. Violating laws and international agreements, Mr Sardari managed to save Persian Jews while holding Germany to it's word.

As the occupation dragged on Abdol Hossein Sardari began to realize the complete picture of what Germany had in store for Europe's Jews. Slowly he began issuing Iranian passports and documents to non-Persian Jews across Paris.


Source- http://aldersledge.blogspot.com/2013...righteous.html

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Old 01-06-2014, 06:41 PM   #61
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

just a important side note. The one racist in the armchair thread apparently has a disdain for both Muslims and Jews, Just to let Do the Math Know and readers here know, here is what the guy said


The Orthodox Jewish community and the Mohammedans in the UK reject the British legal system as a matter of routine - they only obey the law because it is inconvenient not to, not out of any respect for it. It's a nuisance they would rather not have.

Other then this one guy, plenty of posters have contributed excellent stories of Muslims risking life to protect Jews during WW2.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:40 PM   #62
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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Are you a professor of History Do the Math? ...
As opposed to being a teacher that is.
No. Despite my oft-pedantic manner I am not a professor, teacher, or teaching assistant, and have never made a living as an academic. I was a guest lecturer for a tour group once.

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I thought you previously mentioned that you happen to have much interest in WW2, mainly the areas of Europe, is this correct?
Mostly North Africa, Italy and Northwest Europe.

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when I see Jews saying they were protected by X this will be good enough for me
And that is why you will continue to make unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements. In both history and legal matters, uncorroborated statements by witnesses whose situation makes them incapable of accurately judging the situation have little probative value.

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... What is your theseis anyways, that Muslims did not do enough or that they(majority) sided with the Axis forces? Why do you want to go down this route?...
My thesis is that the vast majority of Muslims did nothing unusual wrt individual Jews. They didn't help them; they didn't harm them. The vast majority of this vast majority never had an opportunity. I point this out because the whole thrust of your posts has been to make a false case that Muslims as a whole can be characterized as having heroically saved Jews. This is no more true than the suggestion many make that Muslims supported the Nazi efforts to exterminate Jews.

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Where are these Hundreds of Thousands of Axis soldiers, are they from India or Europe? Or Russia?
The largest number was from the Soviet Union: about 300,000. About 125,000 from Yugoslavia and Albania. A less certain number (100,000 - 200,000) from India, almost all of whom served in support of the Japanese, not the Germans. Roughly 5,000 Arabs and Berbers. I haven't included the (tens or hundreds of thousands of) Muslims who fought against the British in Iraq or Syria, because they were not enrolled in forces of the Axis proper, nor in forces working under Axis military direction.

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I'm not using loaded language but rather, I'm trying to gain knowledge on this issue.
When you describe one side as fighting "against Hitler and the holocaust" and the other side as fighting "for the Axis forces", you are using loaded language. (Unloaded language would be "fighting for the Axis" and "fighting for the Allies", or "fighting for the Axis" and "fighting against the Axis".) You are also using inaccurate language, in that most Muslims who fought for the Allied forces did not do so out of a motivation to fight Hitler, nor out of any knowledge of the existence of the Holocaust.

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Wait a second so your saying those in the Indian army were only fighting Axis forces because they were forced too?
No. Read what I actually write. Don't distort it.
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Very few of the Muslims who fought on the Allied side volunteered freely. Most of those who did were in the Indian Army and volunteered to protect India, not to fight Nazis. And very few Muslims who volunteered for German service were doing so to support Nazism or for anti-Jewish reasons.
Either you have poor reading comprehension or you are deliberately misrepresenting what I said. In case it's the former, let me break that quote down for you into simpler sentences.

Most Muslims who fought on the Allied side were conscripted. (That's because the large majority were in the Red Army, and nearly all Muslims in the Red Army were conscripts.)
Most of those who were not conscripted were in the Indian Army (which was an all-volunteer force).
Most volunteers in the Indian Army volunteered in order to defend India. India was under threat from Japan but not Germany. Fighting Nazis was not the reason most Indians volunteered.

I am saying that many Indians did not volunteer to fight against Hitler and the Holocaust, or even against Germany. There were other reasons to join up that were far more common: economic necessity, cultural tradition, threat to India and British far eastern colonies by Japan, manouvering for upcoming independence.

The largest portion of Muslim forces who fought for the Allies were Soviet conscripts. They fought (usually not very well) because they were forced to, at gunpoint. Here is a description of how Muslims ended up fighting in the Red Army.
Quote:
Doku* had been tired since the recruiter came to his village in the early fall of 1942. His village was four thousand miles from anywhere, and the recruiter ... permitted no argument. No discussion. All males between the ages of sixteen and fifty were to come with him.

Doku was told to line up with the others in the village square. The recruits were locked into a truck, and then a train, for a journey that lasted five weeks. Formal induction into the Red Army happened along the way. Uniforms were issued, thick woollen garments, and a coat, and a pair of felt-lined boots, and a pay book. But no actual pay. No weapons. And no training either... .

The five-week journey ended on the eastern Bank of the Volga, where the recruits were unloaded like cattle and forced ... into a small boat... crammed tight with soldiers. Nobody had room to move. Nobody had a weapon. ... The crossing lasted fifteen minutes and at the end of it Doku was slimy with his neighbors' blood.

He was forced off onto a narrow wooden pier and made to line up single file and then made to run toward the city, past a staging post where ... two quartermasters were doling out loaded rifles and spare ammunition clips in an endless alternate sequence and chanting ... over and over again without pausing:
The one with the rifle shoots
The one without follows him
When the one with the rifle is killed
The one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots.
Doku was handed an ammunition clip. No rifle. He was shoved forward, and blindly followed the back of the man in front of him. He turned a corner. Passed in front of a Red Army machinegun nest. At first he thought the front line must be very close. But then a commissar ... roared at him: No retreat! If you turn back even one step we will shoot you down! so Doku ran helplessly onward and turned another corner and stepped into a hail of German bullets.
Anybody who saw the 2000 movie "Enemy at the Gates" might recognize the scene starting at the third paragraph, yet the passage is not from a book based on the movie or from a book on which the movie was based. The quoted passage is based on actual historical events. Perhaps the movie and this passage have a common historical source.

(* Throughout the original passage the subject was referred to by a title/description. I have substituted the name "Doku".)

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I highly disagree and would imagine the many brave Indian Muslims who fought against Axis forces would also disagree.
Well, its unanimous, because I highly disagree with the way you put it too.

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and there is more
Yes. More than 50 more Muslims, and nearly 25 thousand more non-Muslims.

Last edited by DoTheMath; 01-06-2014 at 09:05 PM. Reason: Explain substitution of name for title/description
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:52 PM   #63
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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I was a guest lecturer for a tour group once.
Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express?
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:32 PM   #64
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express?


I was travelling for another reason, staying at a boutique hotel. I knew the tour leader and knew in advance that her group would be in town that day, so we arranged to meet for lunch. A planned evening tour event had been cancelled for some reason and the tour leader asked me to fill in with an after-dinner lecture and Q&A period on certain aspects of local history. The tour group may have actually been staying in a Holiday Inn, but not an Express.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:32 PM   #65
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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And that is why you will continue to make unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements. In both history and legal matters, uncorroborated statements by witnesses whose situation makes them incapable of accurately judging the situation have little probative value.
You misinterpreted me here, I was taking about both Jews and Muslims who were living under occupation during WW2. These are 1st hand accounts. I don't think they have reason to be lying when it comes to examples of Muslims helping Jews in WW2. Sources I provide like Necdet Kent,

Unable to get Mr Kent off the train and realizing that the Turkish diplomat was bound to remain uncompromising in his stance, the Gestapo allowed the 80 Jewish prisoners to get off as well. Mr Kent would later state:

"I would never forget those embraces around our necks and hands ... the expressions of gratitude in the eyes of the people we rescued ... the inner peace I felt when I reached my bed towards morning."

Do the Math, what are your thoughts on the actions of Mr Kent. For instance do you think that if their were more Mr Kents in WW2 Europe, more Jews would have lived?

http://unitedwithisrael.org/albanian...es-from-nazis/

Straight from a pro Israel site, to support my argument that more Jews would have lived had more Muslims been living in Europe during WW2

Yet, the reality is that other peoples in Europe did not live by the besa code, thus preventing what happened in Albania from happening elsewhere. The Albanian Muslims truly live by the Quranic principle, which is also cited in the Talmud, “If one saved a life, it would be as if he saved all humanity.”

In addition it Albert Einstein used Albania to pass on to other countries.

Anyways, it seems like me and you are the only ones discussing this issue itt. If you could expedite your statements to the armchair thread I think it would be a better bet then just us two continuing here.

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Old 01-06-2014, 11:40 PM   #66
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

yet another remarkabke story of Muslims assiting jews in WW2,

Yet, Albanian Muslims living within Albania were not the only Albanians to help save Jewish lives. Dervis and Servet Korkut, who were Albanian Muslims that hid the Sarajevo Hagaddah from the Nazis, also saved the life of Mira Papos. When Mira’s parents were murdered by the Nazis, Mira escaped to the forests and joined the partisans. After the partisans suffered some horrendous defeats, they ordered Mira and the other young children to return to Sarajevo, which Mira viewed to be a death sentence. However, she also understood that remaining in the forests without assistance would also lead to death.
So, when she returned to Sarajevo, she met someone who worked with her father and begged him for help. He brought her to Dervis Korkut, who immediately took her into his home. Even though Nazis lived nearby, no one suspected them because they dressed Mira in traditional Muslim clothes, gave her a Muslim name, and told people that she was hired to take care of their baby. She was instructed not to speak to people outside the family, so she wouldn’t be detected as non-Albanian. Thanks to them, she survived the war. The Korkut family lived by the besa code and thus took it upon themselves to save Mira, in addition to one of the oldest Hagaddah prayer books in Europe. This demonstrates the marvelous ethics demonstrated by the Albanian people.


http://archive.ksdk.com/news/local/s...storyid=222601 --> video detailing the Albanian Muslims

http://unitedwithisrael.org/albanian...es-from-nazis/

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Old 01-06-2014, 11:55 PM   #67
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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Originally Posted by DoTheMath View Post
The largest number was from the Soviet Union: about 300,000. About 125,000 from Yugoslavia and Albania. A less certain number (100,000 - 200,000) from India, almost all of whom served in support of the Japanese, not the Germans. Roughly 5,000 Arabs and Berbers. I haven't included the (tens or hundreds of thousands of) Muslims who fought against the British in Iraq or Syria, because they were not enrolled in forces of the Axis proper, nor in forces working under Axis military direction.
For something of this weight, I would ask you Provide a source which does list the actual sentences of this argument you are claiming. The
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Originally Posted by DoTheMath View Post
tens or hundreds of thousands
? As you say.

For instance , The Indian Army during World War II was one of the largest Allied forces contingents which took part in the North and East African Campaign, Western Desert Campaign and the Italian Campaign. At the height of the World War, more than 2.5 million Indian troops were fighting Axis forces around the globe

source- http://books.google.com/books?id=3mE...illion&f=false

Btw Enemy at the Gates was a great film detailing an epic sniper shootout during WW2.

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Old 01-07-2014, 12:08 AM   #68
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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Very few of the Muslims who fought on the Allied side volunteered freely. Most of those who did were in the Indian Army and volunteered to protect India, not to fight Nazis. And very few Muslims who volunteered for German service were doing so to support Nazism or for anti-Jewish reasons.
Of course this is something Do the math said, come on Abe your losing your mind. I kid , I kid Do the math you make such massively long posts I could see this error occurring. I hope you can join armchair where the discussion includes more point of views other then mine or yours irt this subject.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:29 AM   #69
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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Most volunteers in the Indian Army volunteered in order to defend India. India was under threat from Japan but not Germany. Fighting Nazis was not the reason most Indians volunteered.




Oh ok, Lol, Abe Simpson, I want to flip out on you so much for telling us all how you think those of the Indian army felt about fighting during WW2. But I shall not, Of course they were fighting for their homeland, at the same time you or I have no clue about the 2.5 million Indians personal thoughts on WW2.

You conviently forget that Germany lost the war, you seem to be unaware of what Hitlers asperations were toward those who were Non Aryan. For instance, Hitler had this to say irt Arabs and to an extent Indians.

We shall continue to make disturbances in the Far East and in Arabia. Let us think as men and let us see in these peoples at best lacquered half-apes who are anxious to experience the lash.

The way you come off in this thread is lol. The thing is you and Yad Vashem are not the end all means of recognizing who help to save Jews. I will never forget that only 1% of Jews in Muslim lands died during WW2 compared to 50% in European lands, with the amazing exception of Albania.

Can you post on armchair where their are people who may disagree with you,? I'm going to stop replying to this thread because this argument is going nowhere. Along with myself and you being the only ones who have contributed substantial information to this thread.

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Old 01-07-2014, 02:20 AM   #70
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

It's interesting that you would choose to quote from the anonymous blog "Alder's Ledge", after criticizing the politics of some sources and commentators in OP.

Here's a quote in the bloggers own words from his third article:
Quote:
Police and mullah militias beat and slaughter men, women, and children as if it is their religion. The butchers of the mosque now take to the street with their nose to the pavement so as to hunt down fresh meat. Not even cameras and witnesses stop these starving dogs as they thrust their will upon their victims. Blood and entrails litter Tehran as the hounds of Hell come unleashed.Yet a world that has promised so little for such a great sacrifice as this stands by and does nothing. The news media hides its eyes and denounces the witnesses at every opportunity. Muhammad Barrack Hussein Obama himself stands by and “respects the Islamic Republic” as his buddy’s boys do his deeds. Where is the support the west vowed for their little brother of Persia? Where have all the real men gone when the heat of battle ignited beneath their feet?
Alder's Ledge does not cite sources, and takes a rather extreme political position in many posts. The quality of your sources is declining, not improving.

You must be quite desperate to resort to websites like that for anecdotes.

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Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
and there is more

The Muslims

There aren't many stories that show up when one starts to research the Holocaust in the Arab world. At least not ones that speak of heroism that is. Yet when you start to dig a little it isn't hard to find such stories these days. The accounts of Muslims saving Jewish lives are prolific. And they aren't simply confined to North Africa and the Middle East either.


Necdet Kent

In 1943 Mr Kent was given his first real challenge when faced with Germany's genocide of the Jewish people. Having been informed that the Gestapo had loaded 80 Turkish Jews onto a cattle car for deportation, Mr Kent went down to the station. He would later recall that the cattle car bore an inscription that stated "this wagon may be loaded with 20 heads of cattle and 500kgs of grass". Yet here he stood in front of a Gestapo commandant with a cattle car loaded with Jewish prisoners.

However the Germans laughed in his face and told Mr Kent that the Jews were nothing but worthless Jews. Furious, Mr Kent and his assistant boarded the train and refused to get off the train.

Unable to get Mr Kent off the train and realizing that the Turkish diplomat was bound to remain uncompromising in his stance, the Gestapo allowed the 80 Jewish prisoners to get off as well. Mr Kent would later state:

"I would never forget those embraces around our necks and hands ... the expressions of gratitude in the eyes of the people we rescued ... the inner peace I felt when I reached my bed towards morning."
It is also interesting to note which parts of the article on Kent you chose not to include:
Quote:
Necdet Kent was a Turkish Muslim who had been born in Istanbul, Turkey. During years of study and building a career as a Turkish Foreign Diplomat Mr Kent had managed to end up in Marseilles, France. There Mr Kent watched as the Germans entered France and installed the Vichy French regime. He bore witness to the horrific implementation of the Nazi race laws.
...
Mr Kent ordered that the cattle car be emptied on the basis that the Jews inside were Turkish citizens and Turkey had declared neutrality in this conflict. On all legal grounds the Turkish diplomat was correct in his assumption that neutrality should be extended to the the Jews on-board.
...
The Gestapo ordered the train to continue to it's next destination. Mr Kent and his assistant stayed on-board as the train of deportees barreled onward. All the while the Germans prepared a car at the next stop and a plan to get Mr Kent off the train.

Once at the next stop the Gestapo boarded the train and demanded that Mr Kent get off and go back to Marseilles where he belonged. Yet Mr Kent replied that he was a representative of a government that did not believe in such abuses let alone on the basis of religious beliefs. For that reason Mr Kent could not leave the Jewish prisoners on that train in that condition.
IOW, Mr Kent and his assistant were diplomats of a country with which Germany was desperate to have good relations. The people Mr Kent was protecting were Turkish citizens, protected by a part of international law with which Germany actually chose to comply. German policy was that citizens of friendly neutrals were not to be rounded up in the face of valid legal protests to the contrary. IOW, in this instance the Marseilles Gestapo office was operating contrary to actual German government policy.

You will also note that Mr Kent does not mention being afraid or in danger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thekid345 View Post
Could one imagine, the courage it took to do this.
Courage? What risks do you think he faced? He was a diplomat from a country Germany could not risk offending, with no past record of saving Jews or otherwise interfering with the Gestapo. The worst that realistically could have happened to him was that he could have been physically removed from the train. Maybe there was a higher risk of him spraining his ankle when getting off himself. He might have got coal dust on his skin and clothes - oh dear! The fact that the Gestapo not only let Mr. Kent go unharmed but released all the Turkish Jews on the train shows they knew they had no leg to stand upon.

As Mr. Kent himself said, he was just doing his consular duty to protect citizens of his country. That is not to minimize the effects of his actions. He undoubtedly saved several lives. But once again, you are overstating the "heroism" aspect. In this you are not alone. There are a number of similarly written (plagiarized?) articles about Mr. Kent's actions which, without any justification, claim he was risking his life. Just like many people assume that Muslims generally supported Nazi persecution of Jews during the War, many people of today assume incorrectly that standing up to the Gestapo was always dangerous. In some cases it wasn't dangerous at all, and this is one of those instances.

On Armchair General there is a thread asking who deserves to be considered a combat veteran - presumably because the term denotes a certain amount of bravery. Somebody who served two tours getting shot at on the front lines in Korea resented that that a cook on a ship offshore that was never attacked got the same medal. Your over-liberal use of "courage, "heroism" and "risked his life" is similarly offensive to those of us whose family members really did risk their lives, or who, as in my case, had relatives executed by the Gestapo or who otherwise lost their life in the Resistance.
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Old 01-12-2014, 01:09 AM   #71
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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Of course there is no corresponding history of a majority Jewish country treating Muslims with tolerance...

... for the simple reason that the only majority Jewish country to have existed since the founding of Islam was attacked by its Muslim neighbours even before it officially came into existence, and has continued to experience attacks by Muslims every year since.
Hi DoThe Math:

My understanding is that there may have been another Jewish country and I'm wondering if you have any familiarity with it. Here are a three links of interest:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/khazars1.asp

http://www.historytoday.com/nicolas-...-jewish-empire

http://www.geni.com/projects/The-Jews-of-Khazaria/13139

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 01-12-2014, 03:04 AM   #72
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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Hi DoThe Math:

My understanding is that there may have been another Jewish country and I'm wondering if you have any familiarity with it. Here are a three links of interest:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/khazars1.asp

http://www.historytoday.com/nicolas-...-jewish-empire

http://www.geni.com/projects/The-Jews-of-Khazaria/13139

Best wishes,
Mason
Hi Mason,

Khazaria doesn't occupy a position in 4-D space that interests me very much, so I have had only passing acquaintance with its history. It is my understanding that Jews were never a majority of the Khazar population, although the nobility may have converted en masse to Judaism some time well after the establishment of the kingdom, perhaps as a political ploy to offset competing pressures to convert coming from both the neighbouring Muslim Caliphate and Orthodox Byzantium. Also, the political dominance of Judaism lasted only a few decades, though so far, I suppose, the same could be said for the State of Israel. Given that they were almost certainly not ethnically Jewish, and that most people in the kingdom were not religiously Jewish, Khazaria doesn't really qualify as what I referred to as "a majority Jewish country".

In preparing this response, I learned that there is something called the "Khazarian hypothesis" - the notion that Ashkenazi Jews are primarily descended from Khazarian converts rather than directly from ethnic Jews from the old Jewish Kingdoms who migrated through the Holy Roman Empire. For reasons I haven't looked into, this hypothesis was often associated with anti-Semitic or perhaps anti-Zionist opinion. The hypothesis was recently revived through DNA research, though there does not seem to be a consensus on the meaning of the evidence. I wouldn't be surprised if both roots were contributors to the current genomic makeup, along with a whole lot of other ancestral influences, including Slavic, Germanic and Greek.

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Old 01-12-2014, 05:08 AM   #73
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

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Hi Mason,

Khazaria doesn't occupy a position in 4-D space that interests me very much, so I have had only passing acquaintance with its history. It is my understanding that Jews were never a majority of the Khazar population, although the nobility may have converted en masse to Judaism some time well after the establishment of the kingdom, perhaps as a political ploy to offset competing pressures to convert coming from both the neighbouring Muslim Caliphate and Orthodox Byzantium. Also, the political dominance of Judaism lasted only a few decades, though so far, I suppose, the same could be said for the State of Israel. Given that they were almost certainly not ethnically Jewish, and that most people in the kingdom were not religiously Jewish, Khazaria doesn't really qualify as what I referred to as "a majority Jewish country".

In preparing this response, I learned that there is something called the "Khazarian hypothesis" - the notion that Ashkenazi Jews are primarily descended from Khazarian converts rather than directly from ethnic Jews from the old Jewish Kingdoms who migrated through the Holy Roman Empire. For reasons I haven't looked into, this hypothesis was often associated with anti-Semitic or perhaps anti-Zionist opinion. The hypothesis was recently revived through DNA research, though there does not seem to be a consensus on the meaning of the evidence. I wouldn't be surprised if both roots were contributors to the current genomic makeup, along with a whole lot of other ancestral influences, including Slavic, Germanic and Greek.
Hi DoTheMath:

Thanks. I recently stumbled across this and now know a lot more.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 01-12-2014, 02:31 PM   #74
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

After randomly coming across how a Muslim Imam protected Jews in Paris, France, I simply must provide this information on this thread.There is more,which includes stories of courage a midst great danger.

As for Muslims in France protecting Jews,

More than 0.5 million Muslims from French Africa fought in The French Army during World War I. About 0.1 million perished in the War. The French people after the War in the 1920s built a beautiful Paris mosque a a symbol of graditude for that sacrifice. People from Algeria's mountainous Kabylia region played an important role in a mosque-based resistance network . The Kabyls are a group which preserved their Berber language and culture. At the time tey constituted a major part of Algerian immigrants to France. The resisrance network communicated in their Tamazight (their Berber dialect) making it very difficult for non-Kabyls to penetrate the network. The mosque's rector, Si Kaddour Benghabrit, preached an Islam that was tolerant and inclusive. Holocaust scholars believe that more than 1,700 people found short-term shelter in apartments on or near the grounds of the mosque. Benghabrit organized an alert system with escape routes to the Paris sweers and nearby canal in case of a raid . Jews were even allowed into the the prayer room's women's section. The mosque was especually important to the survival of many Jewish children. He forged many false birth certificates identifying Jewish children as Muslims. This saved many Jewish children which because of their appearance would have been difficult to hide. [Herskovits, "The Jews"]

To me, these actions include risking ones life to save a life.

http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/hol/holc-alg.html

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_Kaddour_Benghabrit

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Old 01-13-2014, 02:14 PM   #75
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Re: The Heroic actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews

As for Muslims and Jews working together in Bosnia during WW2,

The Hardaga family of Bosnia, helped to shelter Jews during the war. If their are any Jewish members on this board , know that Jews and Muslims worked together through history to protect the the SARAJEVO HAGGADAH, a 600 year old manuscript which details the exodus from Egypt along with other stories from the Bible



The exhibition documents the story of Bosnian Muslims who went to great lengths to preserve Jewish tradition by safeguarding the Sarajevo Haggadah, a 600-year-old manuscript which narrates the Exodus from Egypt every Passover. In 1492, when Spain expelled the country's Jews, a refugee carried the book to Italy. It was then taken to Bosnia by a rabbi who passed it down through his family until a descendant, Joseph Cohen, sold it to the National Museum in 1894. When a Nazi official came to seize the Haggadah during World War II, two men spirited it through Nazi checkpoints, carrying it to a village in the mountains above Sarajevo. A Muslim cleric kept it hidden beneath the floor of a mosque until the war ended. During Bosnia's 1992-95 war, Dr Enver Imanovic, the Muslim museum director, and several Serb policemen risked sniper fire to reach the museum, and concealed the Haggadah in a safe at the National Bank, where it remained until the end of the war.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22176928

Keep in mind from the article itself, certain folks(detrators of reality and historic facts) are against the notion of Muslims and Jews working together during WW2,

One of the main drivers of the project is that there are some small sections in Jewish communities who are trying to rewrite history and say that Muslims overwhelmingly helped the Nazis.

And on the other side, there is a small section of the Muslim community who do not want to talk about the Holocaust for the sake of not wanting to build up an empathy with Jewish communities.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22176928

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