Because you don't deserve more.

u didnt answer that question. i can post a wikilink to oskar schindler, doesnt make enough for a "The Heroic actions of germans during WW2 to save Jews" thread right" ? albania was invaded by italy and had ~200 jews. thats a whole different situation then in the rest of europe. u make a ton of these "islam is great" threads/post ignoring the reality pretty hard imo. lets ask the people in the sudan how these muslims "save" their lifes givin them the sharia.

In a sense, I'm glad you continue to respond like this, rather then responding to the details of my videos, testimonials, historic facts. I would think, in at least one of your responses to me you could have something more then one or two lines. Yet its continued to be more funny stuff. Your a funny guy Husker, tho I will say family guy is a decent show.

Your source is not entirely accurate. Details below.

Didn't Achcar say there was no such thing as a uniform Arab view?. The same holds true wrt a Muslim view. The views of Muslims varied considerably based upon local circumstances. It might be safe to generalize as follows:
Muslims within the British or Russian Empires tended to mostly overtly support their rulers despite whatever internal views they held. (Despite this, a significant portion of the Indian National Amy fighting with the Japanese against the British were Muslims. This was more a product of available recruiting opportunities than a general Muslim view, however. The British considered the Muslims more reliable than most Hindus, and received more overt political support from Muslim parties.) Muslims in Yugoslavia tended to support the Germans, primarily in opposition to Serbs and Communists. Muslims within the borders of the former Kingdom of Albania and in North Africa and the Middle East tended to distrust both sides (with good reason IMO) and just wanted to be left alone and become independent.

And hundreds of thousands of Muslims served with the Germans and Japanese. More served with the Allies than with the Axis, because more lived in areas under control of the Allies.

A third, understrength division was also raised in Bosnia but never saw action. And a fourth was planned, but AFAIK never organized..

That is an over-generalization. Many of the Muslim units failed to live up to German standards, but the same could be said of soldiers in nearly any other country's army. Most operations conducted by the 13th SS Mountain Division were successful. The 21st SS Mountain Division (Albanian) was less successful.
This is false. The Division lasted until the end of the war when it went into British captivity.

There was a high desertion rate once it became clear the war was lost and Tito issued a general amnesty. Because of the desertion rate, the Germans considered disbanding the Division in late 1944, but decided against it.

This is a gross exaggeration. A portion of one of the 18 units making up the division mutinied while on training in France. The mutineers were a group of pro-partisans who had infiltrated the division during recruiting with the aim of obtaining training, weapons and equipment, and then using them against the Germans. They had not counted on being shipped to France, and they forlornly hoped that more homesick Bosnians would join the revolt. However, the remaining 98.5% of the division remained loyal to their German masters. The battalion imam was instrumental in rallying opposition to the mutiny.

Yes there were. But they number so few as to be irrelevant except to the point that Muslims could help Jews at risk to themselves. They are certainly not typical of Muslim behaviour. More Jews were killed by Muslims during the war than saved by heroic Muslim behaviour, but neither was this killing typical of Muslim behaviour. The most typical behaviour was non-involvement or benign co-existence.

Answered, in my preceding post. You will note that I include the best sources on the topics being discussed. You don't.

Of course not. I use the best, most reputable sources - the experts in their field. I try to avoid biased, agenda-driven sources. You should try this too. Might make you more believable than citing the drivel you have presented in this thread.

Without a doubt, the SS were able to cover up documentations in both Europe and North Africa. We don't have complete evidence that 6 million Jews died in WW2, but we know this is highly possible. We don't have literally evidence that most Muslims hated Nazis, but we know this is highly possible because common sense tells us that. Only 1 % of Jews died in Muslim majority occupied countries. Do the math you were not in WW2, You are not the decider of history in this case nor am I.


Thanks for the reply and positive comments. Keep in mind of course, not nearly as many Jews lived in Muslim majority countries compared to those of European countries. Still the facts are, only 1 % of Jews died in Muslim majority occupied countries during WW2. You simply were not involved in WW2 and therefore can not prove the extent the SS went to in these Muslim majority countries in attempting to persecute Jews. Fortunately no matter what anyone says many Muslims rose up to protect and support Jews. For instance a decree was issued in I believe Algeria, in which local Imams asked its Muslim citizens to not partake in the confiscation of Jewish land, I understand the following may be difficult to comprehend but it is said that all Muslims in Algeria accepted the edict. Its in one of the docs I listed and will cite the source if need be again. External forces may have made its way to some of these Muslim majority countries during WW2 but again, they were unorganized forces for the most part who were meant by majority disgust from local Muslim populations. This is what contributed to the fact that only 1% of jews of Muslim majority lands disappeared.

I'm not a troll whatsoever and I take these topics very seriously. So this paragraph by you is a bunch of criticism, that's fine but there is no content to respond to here

Your attitude here could change, you come off as acting younger then your age and intelligence level. Again those Muslim volunterrs represented a tiny portion of Muslims in total of these populations. These divisions that you mention were largely ineffective, their ineffectiveness was only able to get to 1% of the Jewish populations. Righteous Muslims stood in the way of The Grand Mufti of Jersulahem, who was practically the only Muslim(tho he exhibits non Muslim values) person of high position who ( who was installed by the British) exhibited extreme antisemitism during WW2.

Moroccan Muslims disgused some of these Jews as Muslims during this time, its in one of my many sources which includes CBS news, Jewish Institutions, well respected scholars, to say a few. Only 1 %, this point simply cant be stressed enough. You have no proof of what was actually going on in full in these Muslim majority countries during WW2 under occupation. The SS, again was able to destroy documentation evidence in Europe, there is no doubt in my mind that the SS was also able to destroy evidence in Muslim Majortity country.





You don't know if there are other cases, but what history tells us is that only 1 % of Jews disappeared in Muslim Majority countries. Yad Vashem is not the end all means of investigating WW2. Other Jewish organizations honor the heroic actions of Muslims during WW2. Question, are you an ardent supporter of Israel? There is a saying by Alan Dershowitz that I like, he states I'm a supporter of Israel, and a supporter of Palestine, keep this in mind.

You cant prove any of this. Limitations? This is an affront to the Jews who were slaughtered by Nazis in Muslim majority countries. Walter Rauff is also claimed to have worked with Israeli intelligence in 1949, how does that make you feel, dtm? I will provide the source if you need. Rauff was one of the guys who escaped justice after WW2.

Jesus, these divisions broke up after a few months.

What is this? Of course there were some Muslims who gave up Jews. There were also Jews who gave up Jews in WW2. It seems you are letting your love for Israel blind you, I noted this when you said in your first response here how Muslims have always attacked Israel, What the? Israel/Palestine was for a long time a Christian State as well as a Muslim state.

The SS was very exceptional at covering up evidence, For all we know more SS units were deployed to Muslim majority countries then is being said by certain people. But again it was the heroic actions of Muslims which only allowed 1% of its Jewish populations to disapper during WW2.

More Jews were in Albania after the war then before. External forces may have made its way to Albania, but again the local Muslim populations of Albania were heroes and tremendous people who risked life to save Muslims. Again, this is documented in my testimonials from Jews who thanked Muslims for saving their life, documentations, views of Scholars, historians, etc, etc, etc.




On youtube most people don't post with there real name. There were other documentations I listed as well which you completely ignored. Let me explain something to you, what your engaging in here, is the same as myself saying most Jews poisoned water wells in Palestine pre 1949 and drank the blood of their Muslim enemies children. Keep that in mind




And what about the Jews in the documentary. Were they lying about how one of them were almost raped by a German officer? Were these Jews paid to say that Muslims helped to protect them in WW2. A whole bunch of Muslims fought for the Allies during WW2. It was a great majority as well. This is partly why only 1% of Jews disappeared in Muslim majority countries compared to 50%, again 50% in European countries.

Rest assured Do the math, I will not be draining any more time with you. Not because I don't like you or these massive posts. But I have my views and you have yours. It appears we will simply have to agree to disagree. It would be unhealthy to continue for both of us here, IMO

Don't forget Albania had 2000 Jews after the war, Allāhu Akbar and my praises go to the brave, heroic Muslims in ww2 who defied the Nazis.



How does a history thread have 30 replies so fast? Is it because we are dealing with the topic of Islam and or Israel. When it comes to Islam or Israel people seem to go nuts. Its about finding common ground and when have historic facts of how only 1% of Jews disappeared in Muslim majority countries during ww2, I believe this is a instance which is suppose to unite as opposed to divide.

I do not know who mods this forum, but if you have any hope of retaining any integrity as a history forum you will kick this thread over to RGT where it belongs.

DoTheMath seems to know their history

What the heck Dereds, aren't you Irish? I like Ireland, Not that this has anything to do with this conversation.

I feel very comfortable with my OP and you have every right to disagree. Still, unless some compelling evidence is brought fourth in which negates my evidence of how only 1% of Jews died in Muslim Majority countries, or if someone can show how Jews were lying about how Muslims saved them during WW2. Do you really want to go down this route?

I mean do you want to go down the route of saying Muslims slaughtered Jews during WW2 as opposed to saving them? This upsets people because it goes against 1%, it goes against testimonials of Jews and quite honestly it seeks to divide. We know some Muslims gave up Jews, we also know some Jews gave up Jews during WW2. I mean my god tho, people blow up this conversation sometimes, but when you read the OP you will note I'm not saying nasty things about people. I'm actually saying Muslims and Jews worked together during WW2 and I will continue to link stories of Muslims and Jews working together in this thread of that thread.

In any event Dereds, good luck in your life.

RLK, its a history thread which discusses actions during WW2. Nevertheless I'm just about done with this discussion. It doesn't seem like there will be fresh opinions anyways.

I wanted to add one more thing,

When it comes to issues like Muslims saving Jews in ww2. You(more over Do the math) have the ability to say Muslims were also responsible for killing Jews during WW2. This is true but what did very much upset me was the notion that more Muslims sided with the axis powers then allied powers, or that maybe more then 1% of Jews died in Muslim majority countries.

I also interpreted a few posts on here as saying some of the Jews were lying about having their life saved by Muslims during WW2.

Whats interesting is when it comes to issues like the Vietnam War, we know both sides committed "war crimes" and whats even more interesting is that I don't mind saying some Americans did this or that in a negative manner. But at the same time, admittedly, I have a difficult time recognizing how some Arab Muslims supported Nazis during WW2.

It shouldn't be that hard to comprehend if you look at it behind the 2-dimensional view that is being presented ITT. Arab leaders tended to be pro-Nazi not out of any particular animus toward Jews, but rather as part of a comprehensive anti-British view that is understandable given British imperial policy in the region.

Antisemitism became considerably more widespread after WWII when Britain became more overtly supportive of an independent Jewish State, which was seen potentially as a Western proxy in the region.

Overall I find this to be a very poor thread that reduces people to mere religious affiliation without taking larger trends into consideration.

As a side note I recently joined a very good, well known History forum. Responses include the point that Millions of Muslims fought for the allied forces during ww2 compared to the thousands who fought with the Axis forces.

While some Muslims did assist in the murder of Jews during WW2 under the advice of a psychopath. A far great majority more Muslims despised Hitler and fought against him.

Its also due to the human qualities of these Arabs/Muslims, not just Islam.

Yes some Arab leaders were pro Nazi. Yet in comparison to the Arabs who fought with Allied forces, this number is minuscule. Here is a response from my other history forum.

To address Do the Math


To be fair, CI, the majority of Muslims who served with the Germans during World War II, did so due to long-standing internal ethnic cleavages which existed, primarily within Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. The main focus was ongoing ethnic rivalries, especially between the Croats and Bosnians on one side and the Serbs on the other as far as Yugoslavia was concerned. Religion was really a secondary element. As for the 13th SS, it had both Bosnian Muslim and Croat Catholic personnel and a large contingent of Volkdeutsch. It also had the dubious record of having had a mutiny in 1943 involving both Muslim and Catholic officers who wanted to join the French partisans. Let's also keep in mind the Zeleni Kadar [Green cadres] - a Muslim militia in Bosnia which also joined the partisans.

I went at this thread with a different approach( In a minor way) and its working out really nicely. I'm going to go ahead and take a step back here and say lets forget about religion here and simply discuss the subject of Arab reactions to the persecution of their Jewish counterparts in WW2. Lets just say I'm more relaxed then ever and don't mind if folks disagree in any way.

The Yad Vashem Holocaust museum has named an Egyptian doctor to its list of Righteous Among the Nations - the first Arab to be so honored for rescuing Jews during the Holocaust. Mohamed Helmy and a German friend, Frieda Szturmann, saved a Jewish family when the deportations of Berlin’s Jews began in 1941.



http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...emium-1.549718

"Following the German occupation in 1943, the Albanian population, in an extraordinary act, refused to comply with the occupier’s orders to turn over lists of Jews residing within the country’s borders. Moreover, the various governmental agencies provided many Jewish families with fake documentation that allowed them to intermingle amongst the rest of the population. The Albanians not only protected their Jewish citizens, but also provided sanctuary to Jewish refugees who had arrived in Albania, when it was still under Italian rule, and now found themselves faced with the danger of deportation to concentration camps."

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhib...troduction.asp

A reply from my other history thread,

--You know, Sal, I find it odd you would consider the List of the Righteous to somehow be the main criterion in judging conduct, i.e., that a supposed lack of Muslims in this List is somehow suggestive of some sort of failing on their part. The fact is hundreds of thousands of Muslims took part in putting an end to Hitler and the Holocaust - by serving in the Soviet army. They were Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Tatars, Kirghiz, Tadjiks and others. They helped liberate the death camps. Their contribution should not be forgotten simply because they remain nameless in the Western world.

--I would be careful not to draw broad conclusions from the example of the 'Hanschar' formations in the Waffen-SS. They had their own agenda, a continuation of the internecine hillbilly warfare that has plagued the area for centuries. It goes back much further, but the modern Croat history starts with Stepan Radič and continues through Ante Pavelič.

During the war, the Serbs were split into factions between the Karađorđević Četniks and Tito's Partisans. The former were initially armed and supported by the British while the Partisans were being supplied by the Soviets — Tito was a Communist with credentials. The British sent a mission led by Fitzroy MacLean, who reported to London that the Partisans were hunting Germans and the Četniks were hunting Partisans and the Handschar were hunting them both, at least until the Četniks signed up with the Germans.

It's rather complicated, and nothing at all like the situation between Arabs (Muslims) and Jews in other parts of the world. There it was more straightforward. Muslims and Jews were neighbours and friends, where the Nazis were interlopers that threatened their community.

Here is a film(with well known actors) based on the actions of Muslims in Paris during WW2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUcLIihCoaA

On the human level and the cinematic scale of “Free Men,” Stora’s judgment has been wholly validated. And in the historical context, Satloff writes in “Among the Righteous” that albeit in very modest numbers, it can be demonstrated that during “Nazi, Vichy, and Fascist persecution of Jews in Arab lands, and in every place that it occurred, Arabs helped Jews.”

http://forward.com/articles/149041/m...ch-jews/?p=all

last post, as this is #4. But this is a good one

Noor Inayat Khan was a Indian Muslim woman who worked as an Allied SOE agent side during WW2, she was awarded the George Cross, a UK civilian honor. Which is the highest civilian honor in the UK, AFAIK

Although Noor was deeply influenced by the pacifist teachings of her father, she and her brother Vilayat decided to help defeat Nazi tyranny: "I wish some Indians would win high military distinction in this war. If one or two could do something in the Allied service which was very brave and which everybody admired it would help to make a bridge between the English people and the Indians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noor_Inayat_Khan



http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/histori...han_noor.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II

http://metro.co.uk/2010/11/10/armist...gotten-577418/

Many Muslims from the Indian sub-continent, possibly at least 1 million served in WW2 in the fight against Axis powers

You realize that your attempt to paint Muslims as monolithically virtuous is just as offensive as opposing attempts to paint them as vicious Antisemities, right?

Local and national politics played a much larger role than particular ethno-religious identification at that particular moment.

Please take no offense to the following, but can you respond to my points? Again I'm taking this from a new approach, Im fully aware some Muslims gave up Jews during WW2. I'm not here to glorify Islam anymore, lets have an adult conversation and forget about internet scoring points. You can join this other history forum where the discussion is more illuminating then here. Or you can do whatever you want.

Also folks there is a popular movie called Free men which almost mimics my my viewpoints of how Muslims truly reacted to the persecution of Jews in not only Muslim lands, but in Paris, France as well. I was speechless when I came across the film thinking, how is it possible to find this gem when I'm on an internet forum having this exact discussion. The movies message is incredible, to say the least. Free Men is based on true stories as well, All the points that I make itt, the film hits on. The film is on netflix and its a must watch for anyone who is slightly interested in the subject of history.




This is not some B grade movie, well known actors signed on. This is a film based on true stories and is the best WW2 film I have seen since the likes of Saving Private Ryan.

So you are suggesting that the SS organized extermination camps in North Africa that nobody ever found? Hilarious!

I don't think this is at all relevant. One proves things by citing evidence, not merely by claiming to have seen it oneself. However, I suppose we could try asking my father. He was in WW2 and coincidentally (or perhaps not so coincidentally) served in every part of North Africa to which German forces had been deployed. His 93rd birthday passed a couple of months ago, yet he's still as sharp as he was 15 years ago.

No, we aren't deciders of history. All we can do is cite sources and let people draw conclusions. I cite the leading authorities, government documents and professional historians. You cite youtube and anonymous poster on another unnamed forum.

This is the sort of thing where you go wrong. "Rose up" implies types of actions for which there is no documentation of Muslims ever having done to save Jews.
"Rose up" is not how one normally describes handing over used clothing, renting a room, or handing over a previously prepared government document with false data on it.

Actually I think you will find that it was to not partake in the administration of confiscated Jewish property. Almost none of the population was in a position to thus partake, so talking of everybody accepting the edict is meaningless.

I hereby enjoin all 2+2 posters not to accept any medals from the hands of Adolf Hitler. (Let's check back in a week and see what the compliance rate is.)

It is interesting to note that the proclamation didn't express opposition to confiscation of property from Jews, nor demand its return (a lot more in keeping with "rise up", "stand up", "resist", and other terms you have used).

If I've got the numbers correct, (and I'm not sure, which is why I'm giving them) the number of Muslims in Yugoslavia at the start of the war was just under 1 million. The number of Yugoslav Muslims in the German forces (not just SS) exceeded 100,000, so probably a majority of the Yugoslav Muslim males aged 18-38 were in German service at some point during the war. I wouldn't call that a tiny portion. By the end of the war many had deserted, and many had joined the Communist partisans.

The largest division was anything but ineffective. These divisions I mentioned did not operate in North Africa at all, so they had nothing to do with the 1% rate you talk about. Greater Albania had a roughly 25% "disappearance" rate of Jews present during Axis occupation, or 2400% of the 1930 Jewish population of the Kingdom of Albania. The Albanian 21st Waffen SS Mountain Division arrested nearly half of the Jews deported from Greater Albania.

I have no doubt this is true. Why is this "heroic"? What risk did they run by doing so? Please cite one documented instance of a Moroccan being punished for helping a Jew. Please cite a source giving the number of Jews in Morocco who successfully evaded arrest by the Vichy authorities throughout the war directly due to Muslim intervention, and compare to the number of Moroccan Jews arrested by Vichy Authorities.

On the contrary. You have stressed it far too much. It is directly attributable to the lack of German administration in these countries, the total absence of extermination facilities in these countries, and to the lack of deportation of local Jews from these countries to countries where extermination facilities existed. Every single country which had a significantly higher rate of Jewish "disappearance" had a least one of those three factors, usually two or three.

The only Muslim majority country under German administration during WWII was Albania and it had a much higher rate than 1%. The SS was not able to hide the existence of extermination camps in Europe nor was it able to hide the mass deportations of Jews from countries that didn't have such camps. Hiding either in North Africa would have been significantly harder because of the terrain, the lack of built-up infrastructure and the tenuousness of transportation links.

No, it is merely the best source for documentation of non-Jews risking their life to save Jews from the Holocaust. Do you have a source which you wish to suggest is better for this purpose?

I support the right of both Palestinians and Jews to live independently in their own states within secure borders. I am opposed to many of the current policies of the Israeli state and of the Palestinian administration in Gaza. I take no position at this time wrt the policies of the Palestinian administration in the West Bank.

Perhaps a language issue? I meant that Rauff is known to have not gone to particular places or to other particular places at particular times. IOW, his Einsatzkommando was never in any part of Africa other than Tunisia. He personally was in Egypt for a brief visit with Rommel to discuss the potential to set up operations, but never got a chance to do so due to the Germans being thrown out of Egypt. If you don't accept the MI5 report, the CIA report and Rauff's own testimony, and the nonexistence of any contemporary publication citing a presence other than those listed, then I guess I can't prove it to you. I would suggest that most dispassionate readers of this tread would consider the balance of evidence in this thread to favour my contention, not the proposition that the SS operated extermination facilities in Tunisia while it was under Vichy control or in other parts of North Africa.

ORLY. Who would those Jews be? How many? Got some names? Got documented events? Got any documentation at all that shows SS killing a Jew in North Africa? The SS may have been able to destroy documents, but they left behind plenty of evidence that they killed Jews in Europe. Did you know that the vast majority of Jews killed in North Africa were not killed by Germans (SS, Nazi or otherwise)? Most died in Italian captivity. I think most of the rest in Vichy captivity, though I could be wrong about this latter.

Totally indifferent WRT the matter at hand.

It was a great majority as well./QUOTE]No. The great majority of Muslims fought for neither side, just as the great majority of Muslims neither materially helped nor hindered the persecution of Jews.

Given that about 98% of the Muslims who fought for the allies came from countries that didn't have a Muslim majority, and the vast majority of those that fought didn't fight in countries that had a Muslim majority and an Axis presence, I fail to see the connection.

<raises hand, straining out of seat>

Ooh! Ooh! I Know! I know!



OK, so why don't you try to do that, rather than continuing to push ridiculous conclusions?

Normally I'd be prepared to accept the bolded statement at face value, but since you have made a number of citations of incorrect statements, or drawn incorrect conclusions from otherwise true statements, I'm going to ask you to show the numbers that support this claim. Which countries, how many Jews "disappeared" in each, how is "disappeared" defined, and what are the sources? If the claims are true (and I expect that in some sense they are) I expect we'll be able to see some sort of causal factors that are more significant than the countries having a majority Muslim population.

Territories in which German armed forces landed and had a majority Inuit population had 0% of their Jewish population disappear during WWII, and AFAIK, no Inuit ever served in the SS or killed any Jews. By your way of thinking, this makes the Inuit even more praiseworthy than Muslims.

Then why did you bring it up, unless you are trolling?

You have provided no evidence for this claim, and since Jews in majority Muslim countries (other than Albania) were not sent to extermination camps, and since there was no German administration of any Muslim majority country (again, except Albania) Jews were at far less risk of disappearing than Jews in Europe. And as for Albania, while it was the only European country with a higher Jewish population after the war than before the war, it was also the country with the highest ratio of (Jews deported to extermination camps) : (prewar Jewish population)

Nobody here is saying that Jews lied about Muslims saving them. Rather they are saying:

• That much of the saving was kind but not particularly heroic, i.e. that contrary to the title and arguments in OP, few Muslims risked their lives, freedom or even property to save Jews.
• That some Jews were mistaken about the degree of danger they were in, or the intent of - or risks run by - their supposed Muslim benefactors, but that when their cases were investigated by trained Jewish investigators, no actual heroic aid was found to have been given.

Why would anybody say such a thing? Some Muslims saved Jews. A few of those did so heroically. Some Muslims murdered Jews - rather more Muslims than the heroic saviours, but perhaps fewer then the no-risk-taking benefactors. More Muslims arrested hundreds of Jews who were then sent to German extermination camps. The vast majority of Muslims did none of these things. Both betrayal of Jews and heroic salvation of Jews was essentially a non-Muslim European thing (> 99% of instances). Muslim participation rates at either end of the scale were so insignificant that there is no valid way to claim either was characteristic of Muslims.

You seem to be the only one who is upset to find that the rest of us think your 1% argument is meaningless. Nobody here is denying the testimony of Jews. We are suggesting you and others you cite are misinterpreting some of the testimony, and we are pointing out that the most authoritative Jewish agency which looks at such things draws different conclusions from that testimony and surrounding evidence than what you would have us believe. We are not seeking to divide. We are seeking to avoid the travesty of history that you are presenting.

If that were all you were saying (and implying), you wouldn't be getting these replies. But Germans and British worked together too, as did Germans and Russians.

Why? Nobody is denying that some Muslims helped some Jews. Yet that is all such continued posting will prove.

posted shortly before five other posts by thekid345.

Nobody said that more Muslims sided with the Axis than the Allies. However, significantly more European Muslims (by which I meant Muslims from the Balkans) sided with the Axis than with the Allies. They didn't do this for anti-semitic or even pro-Nazi reasons so much as in response to generations of Serbian and Croation Catholic oppression.

Your misrepresentation of what was said about Jewish testimony of Muslims saving them is dealt with above.

I doubt very many Arab leaders were actually pro-Nazi. And I doubt that the Arab view was comprehensively anti-British. However, if your main point is that the main reasons for alliance or adherence of particular Muslim groups were ones of national interest rather than religion, I would agree.

If that is what was actually said, then it isn't really a "very good" history forum. What you said implies a 1,000:1 ratio. Actual serving ratio was closer to 0.5% of that - 5:1. A clear majority of Muslims serving in the British forces did not fight against the Germans.

Perhaps when you say "majority", you only mean "portion". I suggest you have no evidence to support the claim that a majority of Muslims despised Hitler, or for any claim that a majority of Muslims serving in the Red Army served for any reason other than coercion. I already pointed out to you that the majority of Muslims in British Service did not fight against Germans. I would suggest to you that a majority of Muslims had no strong opinion regarding Hitler, many having never heard of him.

If you want to suggest instead that a majority of Muslim leaders in the Balkans, North Africa and other Arab-inhabited areas did not trust or support Nazism, I would agree, but that is not equivalent to what you actually claimed.

Your unnamed history forum is not an authority at the same level as the sources I have cited. Nevertheless, let us look at what it claims. I don't think the word "minuscule" means what you think it does, unless you are comparing leaders on one side to whole forces on the other side (which is a meaningless comparison).

This is all good. I suggest it supports what I have been saying about there being no overall Muslim attitude of support or opposition to either side, but rather a range of attitudes driven by local circumstances.

True as far as it goes, and it leaves out that its senior officers, many senior NCOs and many of its technical troops were German. However, it doesn't give a fair representation of the relative strength of each ethnic component. Sources differ on exact figures. The numbers I quoted in my previous post were the most conservative (smallest number of Muslims) at peak strength from among several sources. According to some sources I may have understated Muslim enlistment by as much a 30%. Composition varied over time, with the Muslim portion declining relative to Volksdeutsch late in 1944, however I haven't seen a source which claims that even at this late point the Muslim component was less than 50%. At peak strength, Muslims comprised somewhere between 65% and 80% of total divisional manpower.

I already partly addressed this canard in my previous post. Let me add that, AFAICT, the mutineers had a higher portion of non-Muslims than the Division as a whole. The didn't want to just join French partisans, they wanted to make their way back to Croatia.

Yes, lets keep them in mind. The word "cadres" should give you a clue about their small size. The word "minuscule" that you used above could be more accurately employed comparing the number of men who served in the Green Cadres compared to the number who served the Germans. In addition to the roughly 22,000 (many others say 23,000-26,000) who served in the Waffen SS, about 100,000 more Balkan Muslims served in the Wehrmacht, though many of these were in a non-frontline role.

This is the first place I have seen it claimed that the Green Cadres were on the same side as the partisans. The only way in which they "joined" the partisans, is that they took part in irregular warfare. The Green Cadres and a number of similar organizations were Muslim self-defence organizations formed to defend Muslim villages against raids by the Croatians and Serbs. I.e. they fought on neither main side, but protected their own.

A better example would have been the Muslim Brigades of the Communist Partisans.

In addition to Balkan Muslims, about 300,000 Soviet Muslims served in the German forces (Very roughly 10% of the number of Muslims in the Red Army) . In contrast few North African or Middle-Eastern Muslims served Gemany, totalling just about 5,000-6,000 Arabs and Berbers. There were also about 2,500 Muslims captured from the British Army who chose to serve the Germans.

The number of Muslims who fought along side the Japanese against the British was in six figures, and nearly as many Muslims fought with the Nationalist Chinese against the Russians and Mongolians.

So, in Europe, as I said. One of the ~60 I already mentioned.

Pretty much all true except the choice of the word "population" is strange, since 99.99% of the population wasn't in a position to comply even if they wanted to. The article (written by a photographer, not a Vad Yashem investigator) seems to ignore what went on under and before the Italian occupation which preceded the German occupation. Most of the refusal to comply was on the part of a very small number of government bureaucrats, who were carrying on pre-Italian-occupation government policy set by the non-Muslim King Zog. AFAIK, nobody suffered any repercussions as a result of this refusal. Also, much of the fake documentation came from a pre-Italian-occupation program initiated by the King to attract Jewish refugees for economic reasons. Also, the rest of the article is technically correct but is worded in a way that makes things sound better than it was. Jews were deported by the Italians before the German occupation and eventually were killed in captivity. Jews were captured and deported to death camps from outside the pre-war borders of the Kingdom of Albania but from within the borders of the area Germany defined as Albania. In total the number of Jews deported from Albania to camps (not all of them died) was about 600, or about 1/3 the number that survived in Albania, or about 25 times the 1930 population of Albanian Jews. Finally it should be noted that the Germans had estimated in 1942 that there were only 200 Jews in Albania, and these had been accounted for by the Italian deportations, so they had no reason to suspect another 1800 were being sheltered there. They didn't look very hard.

It is only significant WRT your claim in the thread title and in OP of heroic action by Muslims to save Jews. As you can see, that is not what the reply below is focusing on.

The Muslims in the Red Army were mostly conscripts. Many came from families which had been involved in independence movements for generations seeking to gain freedom from Russia. They didn't have a very good track record in battle against the Germans. (IIRC, a Russian Commander at Kursk specifically requested Slavic reinforcements because the Muslim forces he had received were no good). A large portion of the Muslims captured by the Germans agreed to serve in the German forces. Rates of Military collaboration by Soviet and Balkan Muslims were much higher than by non-Muslims from Russia, the Ukraine, or the Balkans.

This again goes to the point that Muslim allegiance had little to do with pro- or anti-Nazi sentiment, but rather with local political realities. Nationalism was a much stronger politically motivating force for these people than religion.

The bolded seems to support my thesis, not yours. More on the movie below.

Anecdotes about rare individuals do nothing to prove generalizations about Muslims as a whole. If anything the quote seems to indicate N I Khan felt that, in general, Indian Muslims were not doing anything brave to support the allied war effort, which again goes more to support my position than yours.

Note that "Axis powers" includes includes Japan, and most of the Muslims were employed in home defence, remote colonial defence, or against Japan, not against Germany.

+1

I fear that if you've given up trying to glorify Islam we'll have nothing to discuss. As I have said, nobody disputes that there were some Muslims who helped Jews, or that some of those risked their lives to do so. We just dispute that they were in any way typical of Muslim behaviour in general or significant in terms of either numbers of saviours or of saved. I suppose we also deplore your choice of sources, and interpretation thereof.

Link?

Why are you citing a popular movie as a source? This is typical of the historical invalidity of your sources. I'm glad you compared it to "Saving Private Ryan". SPR was "based on" a historical event but was pure fiction. Tactics, doctrine, events, equipment and interpretations portrayed in it were all historically inaccurate. (The opening scenes sure "felt" real though!)

I brought up the film Free Men because its based on true stories and is actually a decent tool to take a look at this subject with.

DTM, like I said I'm fine with w/e you have to say. Of course your post is so long, that is may just be the longest post you have made on this forum, itr, Well done my friend.

All I can say is did you get the chance to see my other history thread on the armchair general forum ? Its a forum dedicating to history and quite possible one of the best history forums around. Take no offense to the following but in the armchair general thread, there are differing views then what you are presenting itt. Members of the armchair forum more or less agree that millions of Muslims actually did more to assist Jews and Allies (much more) then the thousands of Muslims who fought with the Axis powers under the guise of a psychopath, this a key and IMO should not overlooked.

Prior to the creation of modern day Israel and modern day discrimination from both sides, Muslims and Jews lived liked brothers for a 1000 years in many, many more areas(Middle East, North Africa) then is the case now. At times, modern day news outlets run stories meant to marginalize either/both Islam or Judaism prior to the creation of modern day Israel. Unfortunate instances did occur between these two groups but much of the relationships between Jews and Muslims thru history were positive.

I have 26 posts or w/e the count is because I'm very much interested in this subject and gaining knowledge on the issue, that's why I posted itt. If folks want to agree or disagree with my points, or just add new information then this would be appreciated.

As a side note

93 years young, this is very nice to hear Send your father my appreciation for his service in the army/navy. Whichever branch he may have been in.

My youtube videos were not created by youtube, rather documentations of Jews/Muslims from the WW2 era.

Like I said I'm not going to get upset with you anymore, but please lay off posts like the one you make above. The movie I linked is based on true stories, you should watch it if your interested in the subject of history, its a fascinating look into Paris France during WW2.

Ben Ghabrit, although required to collaborate with the Nazi-controlled French Vichy government, was also a close friend of Mohammed V, King of Morocco. The latter monarch’s laudable efforts to protect his Jewish subjects during the Second World War have led to his name, among others, currently being bruited about to be named one of the “Righteous Among the Nations,” an initiative that Shimon Peres reportedly supports. As Eva Weisel pointed out in a December 28 Op-Ed in The New York Times, getting Yad Vashem to grant the honorific to a Muslim seems to be unusually difficult.

Ben Ghabrit did indeed save Halali by issuing him a false certificate of Muslim religion to mislead the Nazis. To back up this document, the name of Halali’s father was even inscribed on a blank headstone in the Muslim cemetery of the Parisian suburb of Bobigny.


Do the Math, did you expect these Arabs to try and kill/injure SS troops while in Paris, France? Almost certainly this would have led to more Jews dying. Some Muslims in Paris, France were able to hoodwink Nazis and in turn, save Jews. There were Arab/Muslim freedom fighters who joined the resistance during occupied France as well.

Read more: http://forward.com/articles/149041/m...#ixzz2pVLMrtzE


Do the Math I'm coming from the position of bringing Jews and Muslims together thru positive stories. The heroic actions of Arabs/Muslims during WW2 have been largely forgotten, I will always remember the actions of some of these Arab/Muslim heroes and I'm glad I have stumbled upon this subject. It wasnt just because of Islam, human spirit played a role in the decisions of Muslims to hide Jews, provide false documentation to Jews to disguise them as Muslims, I will never forget these heroes.

We have to balance the thousands of Muslims who fought for Axis forces compared to the Millions who fought against Hitler and the holocaust. Also in Albania, at the start of the war there were 200 Jews, and the end of the war there were 2000 Jews. I will never forget the actions of these amazing people who protected Jews at there own risk. I will trust the words of the Jews who were their at the time of Kristallnacht Albania.

Here are a few sources I have used.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/histori...han_noor.shtml

http://www.ajr.org.uk/journal/issue.Apr10/article.5343

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhib...troduction.asp

http://metro.co.uk/2010/11/10/armist...gotten-577418/

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/201...-kristallnacht

The Albanian government refused to cooperate with the Nazis, telling them there were no Jews in the country, Neumann said. So the Nazis did their own search, going house to house to house, including the one Neumann's family was staying with in 1943. The Albanian family introduced Neumann's family as relatives from Germany, staving off the Nazi forces.

At that time, Muslims faced little prejudice, Neumann said, and she's found it disheartening how people today stereotype those of Islamic faith based on the actions of extremists.

"Because someone happens to be a Muslim doesn't mean he also happens to be a terrorist," she said. "It's really deplorable. We cannot as a society distinguish between good and bad. We are so prejudiced."

Members of FAU's Jewish Culture Society felt it was important to spotlight "this important and little known chapter of history," Group President Evelyn Solomon said.

Do the Math, here is the other history forum I was talking about

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...d.php?t=143674

I'm asking you kindly to not bring up my rgt threads in the armchair general thread. Believe it or not, my thread on armchair general is independent of my religious views and was created for the sole reason of gaining knowledge on the issue.

I signed up on armchair general for the specific purpose of forgetting about religion and focusing on the issue of how Arabs/Muslims reacted to the persecution of their Jewish counterparts.