I recently watched The case for Israel: Democracy's Outpost, its on netflix and features Bibi Netanyahu, Benny Morris, Alan Dershowitz. I just want to aid as a side note Netanyahu has some good human qualities but Benny Morris/Michael Oren are not the best historians.

Nonetheless, one of the topics discussed in the documentary is the issue of WW2 and the Grand Mufti Of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseinim who by the documentary's own admission was installed by the British. This post is not meant to discuss the current Israel Palestine issue whatsoever, but rather to focus on WW2 and the actions of Arabs/Muslims during WW2.

According to Michael Oren(an Israeli political official) the grand Mufti became an ardent anti Semite who joined Nazi forces. This is correct. What is not correct are the following comments by Oren..

Oren claimed Palestinian Arabs supported Nazis W/O mentioning how in fact, many Muslims risked life to save Jews in WW2. And that the Grand Mufti was able to accomplish minimal of his goals, the grand Mufti was largely ignored by the many good Muslims during WW2. Muslims even assisted allied forces during WW2. Oren does not include this in his remarks.

There is a known fact, that 50%, again 50% of Jews in Europe disappeared during WW2(not including Albania and we will get to this later in the post) In the occupied Muslim Majority countries, only 1 % of the Jewish population disappeared. Respected Scholars argue had Europe been ran by Muslims in WW2, Millions of Jews would have lived. The following historical information is why I believe if European populations and Euro heads of states were Muslim(during WW2), millions of Jews would have lived.

As for Muslims protecting Jews, Well I don't think its isolated, I think its far from Isolated. Considering that during WW2 only 1% of the Jewish population of Muslim majority countries (in and around North Africa) were eliminated by the SS. Arabs actually competed with fellow arabs to save the Jews, this was due to their Islamic beliefs. Even during Vichy control of their lands Arabs risked their lives to protect Jews. "All Muslims in Algeria accepted the Imam's edicts to not take confiscated Jewish land" Again far from Isolated.

Where as 50% of the European Jewish population fell to the SS in WW2.

There were German(SS) checkpoints in WW2 Africa, there were instances of elimination of jews in Africa/Arab majority countries in ww2, it was the Arab Muslims who bravely risked their life to prevent their Jewish communities from being arrested/killed on the spot. This is why many non religious scholars agree had Europe been ran by Muslims, millions of Jews would have lived.

As for Albania, yes these Albanians were into besa, but they will gladly tell you "there is no besa w/o the Quran, there is no Quran w/o Besa, and to save a life is to gain entry into paradise"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MdxW6SnVNI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj8MgeFzTqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vk3ixrUlcM

"Photographers Norman Gershman and Stuart Huck speak about their exhibition of photographs of Albanian and Kosovar Muslims who risked their lives to save the lives of Jews during World War II. They are joined by Johanna Neumann, a German Jew who survived the holocaust in Albania with assistance from Muslims.

Sponsored by the Holocaust Lecture Series"

As for Morocco, Algeria , and Tunisia, there were checkpoints all over the place. SS troops were stationed in North Africa during ww2. But of course Muslims did everything they could to hide jews in these countries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JxL1idcI8o

Eventually the Germans Arrived in Morocco, "When the vichy authorities poured pressure on the King of Morocco, they told the king there were 200,000 yellow stars for the jews to wear, the king of Morocco said make 20 more b/c those are in my family, and there are no jews or Muslims in Morocco, only Moroccan subjects of the King"

"The imams of Algeris jointly issued a fatwa asking Muslims to not take part in the confiscation of Jewish land, every Muslim in Algeria accepted this"

While under German occupation"the newly crown prince of Tunisia thought of the jews as his own children" and did what he could to protect them


Islam and hospitality go a very long way. Always remember 1% compared to 50%.

Along with the successful Allied Invasion(in which Muslims assisted) it was also the Muslim populations which played a roll in preventing more then 1% of the Jewish populations of North Africa/Albania to fall into the hands of Rauffs men, other SS. Rauff (Walter Rauff, an SS officer) and his men, along with other SS members in North Africa/Albania were attempting, thru WW2, to kill as many Jews as possible in North Africa/Albania.


Nevertheless, As for Albania

http://www.ajr.org.uk/journal/issue.Apr10/article.5343

The objective of the planned documentary Back from the Brink (for further details, see my letter in AJR Journal, December 2009) was to express gratitude to individuals and/or countries that helped us Jewish refugees to survive. I personally had felt for a long time the need and desire to thank Albania and its population for having saved my life since after Kristallnacht Albania was the only country that was prepared to offer my parents and me a safe haven. This made me keen to include scenes filmed in Albania in our documentary. However, my failure to secure sufficient funding made it impossible to cover the cost this would have involved. Fortunately, the Albanian embassy in London was prepared to enable me and a cameraman to spend three days filming in Albania.

Though I vividly remember the generous hospitality Albanians offered us Jewish refugees in 1938-39, I must admit I had not been aware that Albania is the only country in Europe with more Jews after than before the war: there were 200 Jews before and 2,000 Jews after the war. This clearly shows that Albania became a safe haven for Jews during the last war because Albanian families were prepared, even at the risk to their own lives, to offer shelter to Jewish refugees.

Albanian Muslims of the time would tell you there is no Besa w/o the Quran

Cite?

Based on the actions of Muslims during WW2 to save Jews in Europe and North Africa as outlined in my initial sources. Israel honors these Muslims as well.

Also


Thomas Friedman, who has been involved in arguments with Noam Chomsky over the issue of Israel and Mehdi Hasan to say a few.

I'm assuming you misunderstood the question.

I'm looking for links to 'many non religious scholars' who 'agree had Europe been ran by Muslims, millions of Jews would have lived.' Actual links to them making this statement.

I think there is good evidence that about two dozen Albanian Muslims hid Jews in Albania proper at some risk to themselves. Another three dozen or so European Muslims from outside Albania (some of them ethnic Albanians from Yugoslavia) also took risks to help Jews. This should not come as much surprise to anybody familiar with the pre-WWII history of Muslim majority countries' often tolerant treatment of Jews and Christians, or with ethnic Albanian rules of hospitality. Indeed Sharia prescribes tolerance of People of the Book (Jews and Christians). Nor should it come as a surprise, given that Albania was just about the only European country without any history of anti-semitism - for the simple reason that the pre-war Jewish population of Albania was almost non-existant (less than 30 people).

Of course there is no corresponding history of a majority Jewish country treating Muslims with tolerance...

... for the simple reason that the only majority Jewish country to have existed since the founding of Islam was attacked by its Muslim neighbours even before it officially came into existence, and has continued to experience attacks by Muslims every year since.

The number of Muslim Albanians who risked their lives to save Jews is about the same as the number of Jewish refugees murdered by Albanians.

Yad Vashem recognizes about 60 Muslims as having risked their lives to save Jews from the holocaust, among nearly 25,000 total Righteous Among the Nations. Less than 1/4 of 1%. AFAIK, all these Muslims were European.

In contrast to the 22 Muslim Albanians numbered Righteous Among Nations by Yad Vashem, approximately 6,500 Albanian Muslims joined the 21st Waffen SS Mountain Division, which arrested nearly half of the hundreds of Jews sent to concentration camps from Greater Albania. While Albania did have the highest ratio of post-war to pre-war Jewish population in Europe, it also had the highest ratio of Jews deported to prewar Jewish population.

In addition to the Albanian Muslims in the 21st Waffen SS Mountain Division, more than 15,000 Bosnian Muslims and another 1,000 Albanians formed the majority of the 13th Waffen SS Mountain Division, the first SS division to be formed from non-German sources.

So against 60 Muslims who risked their lives to save Jews we have > 22,000 Muslims who risked their lives to fight for the SS.

I would be amazed to see even a single citation of any African or Asian Muslim "heroically" (i.e. at serious risk to themselves) sheltering Jews in an area under German occupation. This would be impossible because none of Africa or Asia was ever under Nazi administration. Tripolitania and Cyrenaica (and temporarily occupied parts of Egypt) were under Italian administration and the SS was unable to operate there. Tunisia was the only other part of North Africa to see German land forces, and it was under French administration. Despite your misleading wording, Rauff's Einsatzkommando was only ever deployed to Tunisia, and he was there for too short a time to set up any extermination facilities. (The Germans army were in Tunisia for less than 6 months, Rauff even less.) Jews were arrested in Vichy colonies by the French and in Italian territory by the Italians. However, unlike Jews arrested in Europe, these Jews were not sent to extermination camps. They went to labour camps, or were billeted on Arab families from whence they went daily to assigned labour tasks, wearing their yellow stars. Generally, only Jews with European passports were deported from Africa.

Despite there being no organized extermination facilities, many Jews died in labour camps or due to individual execution. Most of those who died did so in Italian labour camps for the simple reason that they were in camp captivity for many times longer than Jews from French areas. The reason the death rate among African Jews was significantly lower than among European Jews was that there was no organized extermination process set up on the African continent. It has little to do with African Muslims helping Jews, and what little help was provided was done at little or no risk.

Anybody sheltering Jews in Vichy African territory did not risk arrest, as doing so was not illegal. That is one of the main reasons why the few documented instances of Muslim North Africans hosting or diverting Jews has not resulted in any of them being recognized as Righteous Among the Nations - they did so at no personal risk, and in some of these "hosting" cases actually facilitated forced labour for the Germans. AFAIK, no Muslim from Africa or Asia has been documented as having risked their life to save a Jew from the Holocaust.

Please troll elsewhere. RGT doesn't seem to have caught on yet.

I suspect it's him understanding the question

In fact tom Friedman Jewish-American Columnist New York Times told me in the French chamber in the last week, where he believed Muslims have mostly been running Europe in the nineteen forties. Six million extra Jews would still be alive today

http://www.newageislam.com/multimedi...olwich/d/12571

As for a neat side note,

In fact Daniel David Levering the author of the Pulitzer prize winning historian and author of the Golden Prism of Winter, that there would be no Renaissance in Europe, there would be no reaffirmation in Europe without the role played by Ibn e Sina, Ibn e Rushd, some of the great Muslim theologian, philosopher, scientist in bringing this knowledge to Europe.

Many non religious scholars?

During ww2 the SS were able to cover up many of their actions.

What is this suppose to be? Are you a Zionist? Dont take offense to this I'm asking a serious question. You were nasty to me in the Japan thread as well, I think you have good qualities but I could care less about some of your personal remarks toward me. Did you watch any the videos I linked, did you read my posts in detail?

I will never forget about these brave Muslim during ww2 who stood in defiance of occupying German forces, risking life to protect Jews in ww2. In one of the documentaries I listed, it becomes known that in Morocco, Jews and Muslims were like brothers.

Provide a source, are you getting your info from Benny Morris or something?

ROFL. I make a well detailed post and all you can do is post another wow/laugh/one line response to me. Thomas Friedmen is a great source to link.

I have my sources of my original post on my side, including documentations and testimonials of jews who were protected by Muslims in ww2

Watch this video , for the love of god.

ROFL. I make a well detailed post and all you can do is post another wow/laugh/one line response to me. Thomas Friedmen is a great source to link.

I have my sources of my original post on my side, including documentations and testimonials of jews who were protected by Muslims in ww2

Watch this video , for the love of god.

You claimed many non religious scholars then when asked for a cite referred to a comment by Tom Friedman to Mehdi Hasan. This isn't many non religious scholars but you don't care about the questions you are asked or the evidence you provide.

According to Albert Speer,

Hitler said that the conquering Arabs, because of their racial inferiority, would in the long run have been unable to contend with the harsher climate of the country. They could not have kept down the more vigorous natives, so that ultimately not Arabs but Islamized Germans could have stood at the head of this Mohammedan Empire

We shall continue to make disturbances in the Far East and in Arabia. Let us think as men and let us see in these peoples at best lacquered half-apes who are anxious to experience the lash

Most important

According to Gilbert Achcar, there was no unified Arab perception of Nazism:-'In the first place, there is no such thing as Arabs. To speak in the singular of an Arab discourse is an aberration. The Arab world is riven by a multiplicity of points of view. At the time, one could single out four major ideological currents, which extend from western liberalism, through Marxism and nationalism, to islamic fundamentalism. In regard to these four, two, namely western liberalism and Marxism, clearly rejected Nazism, in part on shared grounds (such as the heritage of enlightenment thinkers, and the denunciation of Nazism as a form of racism), and partially because of their geopolitical affiliations. On this issue, Arab nationalism is contradictory. If one looks into it closely, however, the number of nationalistic groups which identified themselves with Nazi propaganda turns out to be quite scaled-down. There is only one clone of Nazism in the Arab world, namely the Syrian social national party, which was founded by a Lebanese Christian, Antoun Saadeh. The Young Egypt Party flirted for a time with Nazism, but it was a fickle, weathercock party.

Achcar argues that flawed historical narratives often over-emphasize collaboration and under-apreciate progressive Arab political history, overshadowing the many dimensions of conflict between Nazism and the Arab World. He is critical of Zionists who promulgate this 'collaborationist' narrative for partisan purposes. He proposes that the dominant Arab political attitudes were 'anti-colonialism' and 'anti-Zionism,' though only a comparatively small faction adopted anti-Semitism, and most Arabs were actually pro-Ally and anti-Axis (as evidenced by the higher numbers of Arabs who fought for Allied forces)

I trust Achcar over a Michael Oren type of argument irt WW2.

The Zionist narrative of the Arab world is based centrally around one figure who is ubiquitous in this whole issue — the Jerusalem Grand Mufti Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who collaborated with the Nazis. But the historical record is actually quite diverse. The initial reaction to Nazism and Hitler in the Arab world and especially from the intellectual elite was very critical towards Nazism, which was perceived as a totalitarian, racist and imperialist phenomenon. It was criticized by the liberals or what I call the liberal Westernizers, i.e. those who were attracted by Western liberalism, as well as by the Marxists and left-wing nationalists who denounced Nazism as another form of imperialism. In fact, only one of the major ideological currents in the Arab world developed a strong affinity with Western anti-Semitism, and that was Islamic fundamentalism — not all Islam or Islamic movements but those with the most reactionary interpretations of Islam. They reacted to what was happening in Palestine by espousing Western anti-Semitic attitudes.

-Gilbert Achcar

As stated before, Grand Mufti Al Husseni amounted to a loser who was defied by the Muslim populations, Only 1 % of Jews in Muslim majority countries under occupation disappeared during WW2, as opposed to 50% of European Jews.

Do the math, here is a piece which is very critical of modern day Muslims. Yet there is no denying history even by this writer.

http://www.projetaladin.org/holocaus...d-muslims.html

The following, sort of corroborates what Gilbert Achcar was saying irt this issue.

Al-Husseini and the Muslims troops fighting on the side of the Wehrmacht were not representative of Muslim sentiments in the course of World War II. Hundreds of thousands of Muslim soldiers from Africa, India, and the Soviet Union helped to defeat fascism at places like El-Alamein, Monte Cassino, the beaches of Provence, and Stalingrad.

These Muslims knew by doing righteous acts that there rewards in Paradise can only increase.

Although for the vast majority of Muslims the war in Europe remained a distant conflict, the Nazis managed to recruit some Muslims directly. Two Muslim SS divisions were raised: the Skanderbeg Division from Albania and the Handschar Division from Bosnia. Smaller units from Chechnya to Uzbekistan were incorporated into the German armed forces. But the Nazis soon discovered that these units were militarily ineffective and unmotivated to fight for the Third Reich. The much-vaunted "Hanschar" SS division was disbanded after a few months due to mass desertions and earned the distinction of being the only SS division ever to mutiny.


This sort of corroborates what noted scholar, Gilbert Achcar claims.

Like I said before, Al-Husseini was a loser incapable of carrying out w/e he was trying to accomplish because of the valiant Muslims who stood in Nazi Germany's way.

There were also stories of great courage and sacrifice on the part of Muslims who risked their own lives to save the Jews from the Nazis.

These Muslims knew by doing righteous acts that their rewards in Paradise can only increase. Even tho I disagree with some of the writers modern day views, along with some of the writers WW2 views, both Muslims and Jews will be very appreciative of the above comment.


EDIT: Do the Math, please answer this question. Where did you get your sources? Seriously, you have made some outlandish allegations and its time you provide a cite. All I'm asking for is where you read the information your now bringing to this thread. Was it Frontpagemag, Jihad Watch or something similar?

What horrendous nitpicking. Your awful at reading posts, seriously stop. Please stop what your doing, you didn't live during WW2 and I much rather trust the Muslims and Jews in the docs and sources I list as opposed to you.

Some of what your doing itt would be like me asking you to prove to me the SS killed 6 million Jews in WW2. I demand that you show proof for every single death, I demand that you show me evidence of the evidence the SS destroyed in WW2.

The SS were indeed stationed in occupied territories during WW2 in Muslim Majority nations. Do you realize that the SS were capable of destroying evidence in these countries as they were able to do so in Europe?

No you made a claim that many scholars and historians supported a claim then when asked for evidence of the scholars and historians you refer to a conversation between Hasan and Friedman.

I'm not asking for evidence for what happened during WW2 only evidence for a claim that you made. Unsurprisingly, given you seem to have no problem with lying, those claims remain unsubstantiated.

I would say you misinterpreted what I said. Although I will apologize to you and Do the math you for using offensive language in my last posts.

edit: I'm unable to cite say 100 claims of this off the top of my head. But If a guy like Friedman is claiming 6 million Jews would have lived, it carries more weight then say someone like me making the claim. While I probably should have omitted the word many, I knew Friedman and Hasan had the conversation prior to making my post.

And the lies continue...

u say when europe would be ruled by muslims, 6 million jews would have survived?

Not that this is an oxford debate, but rather an internet gambling forum, still your nitpicking is technically correct.


Respected Scholars argue had Europe been ran by Muslims in WW2, Millions of Jews would have lived. -from my original post

I just wanted to add the fact that this is what I initially said, IMO this deserves more attention then what I later said in my post by adding the word many. I think you were overly nitpicking here, as I was simply making an educated guess irt if Europe had a higher population of Muslims in WW2 then x amount of Jews would have lived. Tom Friedman, for example, is one person to imply this and I'm in agreement with him.

Your viewpoints itt are consistently a few words or one sentence

To clarify, my view is if European populations included more Muslims during WW2, especially the likes of Albanian Muslims, who are some of the greatest heroes to live, that more Jews would have lived. Tom Friedman, Mehdi Hassan, Gilbert Achcar, the Jews and Muslims who were like brothers in WW2, and more seem to agree with me. Its just a great side to be on Popeye, I support these type of people and will continue to make sure their names get out.

For instance, it is reported by reliable sources that there was no evidence a Jew was turned over to the Nazis in Albania, in WW2.

This response has nothing to do with what you quoted from me, and as worded is essentially meaningless. What are you insinuating?

A thorough refutation of the thrust of your original post in this thread.

I am not a Zionist. I am somebody who agrees with the statement that some Muslims risked their lives to save Jews from Germans or Italians in WWII. 60 Muslims. All in Europe. I also agree that Muslims and Jews often co-existed peacefully in Muslim-dominated North Africa. I also agree with nearly everything you have quoted from Gilbert Achcar up to and including post 15. However, what he says does nothing to support the OP. The spin you seem to have been trying to put on the thread at the beginning is wrong, and many of the statements you made are factually false.

I am also somebody who has come to the conclusion that you are a troll. I've read every post you have made in History and in RGT, and many of your other posts on 2+2. Every thread you have started in the two named fora is controversialist, backed by dubious sources, ignores mainstream sources, is full of non-sequiturs and dubious logic, and contains just enough truth to seem credible to the uninfomed. When faced with solid contrary evidence you change the topic. All of these are classic troll behaviour.

All 60 of them? Good. Their deeds deserve to be remembered. Will you also remember the > 22,000 Muslims who volunteered to serve in the SS? You should. And when trying to put a general characterization to Muslim attitudes towards Jews and Nazis in Europe, remember that ratio - 60:22,000. And when you remember the 22 Albanians among those 60, remember the roughly two dozen Jewish refugees murdered by Albanians, and the hundreds of Jews arrested by Albanians and subsequently deported to German extermination camps where many were killed.

Yet that "brotherhood" and the symbolic gesture of the Moroccan puppet King were ineffective at stopping the arrest of Moroccan Jews by Vichy Authorities.

Who's Benny Morris?

Only one source? I can do better than that.

For documented cases of people risking their lives (or not risking their lives) to save Jews, the definitive source, the only organization tasked with investigating every claim of such support and documenting every instance - Yad Vashem.

For the limitations of deployment of Walther Rauff and his Einsatzkommando to North Africa: his own testimony at the trial of Bruno Streckenbach, and declassified MI5 and CIA files on Rauff.

For Muslim recruitment into 13th and 21st Waffen SS Mountain Divisions, their involvement in the arrest of Jews, murder and rapes of civilians and other crimes, too many sources to list all, but including:
Die deutschen Kriegsgefangenen in Jugoslawien 1941–1949, Kurt Boehme
Totenkopf und Edelweiss: General Artur Phleps und die südosteuropäischen Gebirgsverbände der Waffen-SS im Partisanenkampf auf dem Balkan 1942–1945, Roland Kaltenegger
Himmler's Bosnian Division: The Waffen-SS Handschar Division 1943–1945, George Lepre (definitive English-language source on 13th SS)
Muslimansko Autonomastvo I 13. SS Divizija, Enver Redzic
Organizational History of the German SS Formations 1939–1945, George Nafziger
The Waffen SS (3): 11. to 23. Divisions and German Mountain & Ski Troops 1939–45, Gordon Williamson

For there not being any German military or SS units deployed to Algeria or Morocco, any history covering the war in North Africa, but dealing specifically with authorization for foreign deployment of Geman forces:
Hitler's War Directives, Hugh Trevor-Roper

For the number of Jews in pre-war Albania (24), the 1930 Albanian census.

For the Albanian murders of Jewish refugees, Balkan Genocides: Holocaust and Ethnic Cleansing in the 20th Century, Paul Mojzes.

Finally, to deal with the Youtube video you reference in post 12 (also in the OP):
A close examination of the video itself makes it clear it is not a definitive source. The video is posted by a anonymous user with screen name RighteousMuslim. It is edited to omit any credits. It doesn't cite any authoratative source to support its claims, and the only authoritative source it does cite disputes its claims. It tries to build a general case from a small amount of anecdotal evidence. Paying close attention to the video reveals that investigation found that no risk was assumed by any Muslim referenced.

In the particular case of Khaled Abdul-Whahab, cited at 5:30 in the video, the video make a number of false, misleading and inflammatory statements. It claims that two Jewish families were hiding from the Germans in stables owned by Abdul-Whahab on his home property. In fact, Abdul-Wahab was friendly with the Germans. The Jews were not hiding. The Germans knew the Jews were being accommodated in the stables, and approved (perhaps thinking stables were more appropriate for Jews than the houses from which the Germans had removed them in order to accommodate their own troops). The women and children were generally not permitted to leave the property, but the men in the two families were required to report for forced labour assignments. The Germans came by regularly (weekly IIRC) to check that none of the Jews had been allowed to escape. During these inspections the Jews had to present themselves for roll-call, wearing their yellow stars, ofc. The only thing Abdul-Whahab saved any Jews from was once a friendly (to him) visiting German officer got drunk and went out to the stable and subjected a young woman to a drunken harangue for about two hours. Eventually Abdul-Whahab came out of the house and took the drunk German back to the house or sent him back to base. Legally, the German was in more peril than the frightened young woman. If he was going to act on any of his threats he wouldn't have waited two hour. The young woman looked upon this as a friendly intervention by Abdul-Whahab, but I think the facts are easy to interpret as Abdul-Whahab running a mini forced labour camp for the benefit of the Germans, and one wonders why he let the German verbally torment the woman for so long. The video refers to this incident as "the women and children almost came to grief", yet there is no evidence that there was any actual danger beyond drunk threats. The Jews in the stable would not be in a position to know that Abdul-Wahab was being paid a stipend by the Germans for providing food and shelter.