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Originally Posted by Ahigh
I think you oversimplifying strategic offensives and overestimate tactical once. For about 3 month in the beginning of 1942 there was practically total strategic standstill. But overall i actually think that it would be a good idea for Germans to banker down completely but strategic mistakes that were made by Russian somewhat forced Germans hand in continuing to attack.
Yeah. The weather was a major factor as was Germany's need to regroup. I am not talking about the German's bunkering down in place. I have clearly stated in answer to the original question that yes, if the Germans retreated to form a defensive line before wasting all of their troops, they could have held the Russians. I appreciate your arguments, but they are not properly embracing the hypothetical that is at issue. You keep reverting to battle conditions and lines as they actually existed.
The question in play requires an organized retreat and establishment of a defensive line at a specific time in the war. You keep addressing situations that happened after the hypothetical and keep placing troops in places other than required by the hypothetical.
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Are we talking about German version of mannerheim line?I am sure you realize that something like (or even 10 times lighter then that) was not possible to built during winter of 1942?
No kidding. Given the relevant factors, however, the initial establishment of the line would have been more than sufficient to knock back anything Russia could bring at that time. Over the ensuing months, the scenario anticipates fortification.
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The problem with this line of thinking is working yourself into mistaking believe that Nazi could somehow win the war of attrition but they couldn't and Hitler knew about it as well as anyone else. Even if it would be prudent from the prospective of military command to take a strategic defense, from the prospective of the nation they had only one choice and it was to attack.
This is absolutely, demonstrably false. Hitler is the one who kept putting his armies INTO battles of attrition while his generals were begging for him to let them manuver out of it to the point where prior to invading Moscow, there was a growing call to establish a defensive line (which is where I believe the hypothetical came from to begin with). Hitler was probably one of about a dozen military commanders in the world that actually believed Germany would prevail against Russia in a war of attrition. Your comments stating the exact oppisite are dumbfounding and serve to discredit (unfortunately because you demonstrate a good background for certain aspects of the campaign) your entire statement on the war.
Honestly, to me, saying "Hitler knew Germany could not win a war of attrition against Russia" is on par with claiming the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.
Your conclusion that follows your blatantly false premise is totally flawed. The only way the Germans defeat Russia is explained in detail in my earlier posts in this thread. Once Germany missed its chance to storm Moscow practically unopposed in August/September 1941, the prudent option was to withdraw and hold most of Germany's substantial gains.
Given the forces available to it and the more manageable supply lines, it would have been no problem, really NO PROBLEM, for Germany to hold that line until the end of the war at which time, either Germany develops nuclear weapons and uses them on Russia, Hitler is deposed and Germany negotiates peace with Russia, or Germany continues fighting until the other Allieds somehow break through or are able to use atomic weapons. The fact that Germany would be settled in on the Eastern Front would have made an allied invasion in the West many times more difficult, if not impossible without atomic weapons.