Wow, this is getting as juicy as AP. Has anyone at all tried to contact UB or the KGC yet?

fyi, i registered the ultimate bet version of the AP domain name.

If Trambo or someone wants to do something with it, they're welcome to it, or alternatively, I'll just use the same template and change the site's name

Holy moley. **** about to hit the fan, again?

I played at UB a while ago and still get bonus emails and phone calls. I emailed every ub-mail I had this email: "NioNio cheating speculation. Please try to make sure there's an investigate into this issue and a public statement released. Especially after the Absolute Poker cheating incident this seems incredible important to me.

2p2 link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=99247"

The answers Ive received:

"Thank you for contacting us. We have been watching the forums closely and an Investigation on NioNio is underway already, this is a high priority for us. As soon as there is any outcome from this investigation we will be glad to respond to our players."

"We’re on it…" followed by "Hi XX, I was looking at those hands, and to tell you the truth, I see nothing weird. From my point of view, nothing suggests that the player NioNio has any kind of advantage. These things happen in poker a lot, I see them at live games all the time. Never the less, I sent all the info to security. Just please don’t jump to conclusions, especially with an issue like this that seems a little paranoid. Note that the other players in the forum also thing that those hands are completely normal."

And the standard FU-mail:

"Dear Mr. XX,

Thank you for contacting us.

Thank you for letting us know about what you witnessed at the tables.

A single incident of collusion is often difficult to prove conclusively, with the exception of the most obvious cases. When we are confronted with the possibility of collusion between two players, we will not only review the game in question, but also all incidents of the suspected player’s actions together. We look into the player’s history to analyze their play in the past, and to determine if other players are involved.

At times we can prove conclusively that cheating occurred. In most cases we can conclusively prove that the players were definitely not cheating, and what appeared, as collusion to one in the game, or observing the table, is merely a coincidence.

If we notice a pattern of unusual activity then we will take action. It is against our policy to reveal any actions taken against another account. Therefore, the actions taken against those suspected of cheating cannot be discussed with anyone but the account holder. We want to thank you again for bringing this possible collusion activity to our attention.

Please feel free to contact us if you have any further questions or comments.


Best regards,

Heymi
UltimateBet ~ Security Department
'The Ultimate Poker Experience'"

Josem,

I'm not sure it was clear, but my post about winrates and what not were based on the fact that no one in my fairly large sized DB were able to replicate 50+ PTBB over even small sample sizes.

8k hands at 50+ is ridiculous and I think the p5's post is finally the "smoking" gun. Would love to get a hold of the mystery source.

Kinda coincidental. Surrey only has a population of like 350k. Barely a city.

So has this been considered or is it a non-issue. Just wondering. Sorry if its been addressed already.

So I talked to Hellmuth at the tables earlier tonight and he said they were investigating and that it looked like it was a legit well known player and that they would be releasing information slowly. He also said the rumors are that he won 700k then lost 200k under a different name. Now I am doubtful of this story but decided to look in my database and see if I could find anyone with similar stats losing a significant portion back at these limits. I didn’t but did find some suspicious looking winning accounts. I didn’t have many hands on them so looked them up at mypokerintel and here is what I found. All sessions were at 10/25 HU table or 25/50 50/100

UTakeIt2

Wins 45.41 BB/100 8,046 hands played last session 8/29/2007
61/39 Flop AF 1.7 Turn 3.1 River 3.3 770 hands from my database

ilike2win

Wins 37.34 BB/100 5,545 hands last session 6/22/2007
60/36 Flop AF 1.2 Turn 2 River 4.5 715 hands from my database

FlatBroke33

Wins 65.43 BB/100 3,753 hands last session 8/11/2007
64/38 Flop AF 1.1 Turn 2.2 River 10.2 650 hands from my database


The next 3 i will blank out as their hand samples are small and I do not want to accidentally list anyone unrelated but they do fit the profile as far as preflop/winrate/street aggression/ and time frame. If it is appropriate to add their names later I will do so.

XXXXXX
Wins 98.87 BB/100 1561 hands last session 9/22/2007
53/31 Flop AF 1.2 Turn 2.8 River 3.7 200 hands from my database

XXXXXX
Wins 46.7 BB/100 899 hands last session 9/26/07
63/42 Flop AF 1.8 Turn 6.3 River 8 255 hands from my database


XXXXXX
Wins 129.18 BB/100 777 hands last session 6/30/07
61/33 Flop AF 1.9 Turn .7 River 9 127 hand from my database


I am not stating factually any of these are cheats just presenting evidence. I do not have too many went to showdown hhs but there definitely are some quite suspicious hands.

scratchy1-

"So I talked to Hellmuth at the tables earlier tonight and he said they were investigating and that it looked like it was a legit well known player"

No way a legit well known player has these stats. That's harder to believe than a donk getting lucky. Sounds like Phil's a company man.

playing phil hellmuth now, in the chat he is saying the nionio account was a "well-known player" that then lost 200k back on another name. they are saying UB is convinced he is not a cheat...WTFFFFF

Im pretty sure a pokerev graph of nionio would show huge winnings in non showdown pots.
And these other accounts listed seams to be suspicous too...

wow phil is risking his rep big time here

scratchy,

Were you looking at just this time period or were you looking at all in your DB and these guys all happened to quit playing about the same time? Because it is strange that all these guys played during that span of 4-5 months, and have not played since! Who are these guys winning huge and just quitting?? Oh and strangely enough, all these accounts have been deleted also.

Its ****ed up, im suspicous as hell of all these accounts as well but technically we dont have enough info on them yet to for sure say that they were cheating as well, although if i had to guess id say they probably were too (i havent researched all of the accounts in question, but utakeit2 is one i have analyzed and i am VERY suspicous)

Im just a micro player... But the increasing AF each street is kinda similar (with a big river AF) and the vpip/pfr. Hard too draw any conclusion about that though, could meen lots of things.

etant i was looking though all of my 07 database and pulled those names before even knowing when their last session played was.

BTW just checked and changing your screen name does not make the old name no longer exist so something else had to be done. None of these account names exist anymore.

hey guys, this is my first post on 2p2 and i hope to contribute to the site more often in the future. I play on ub under screen name 'Mike Sid'. I must say this is a damn fine job you guys (trambopoline, dlpnyc21) have done. To really have the balls and confidence to know that something wasnt right here and to go through with an in depth analysis on this guy and his hhs is very impressive. It's great to have you guys in the online poker community. Thank You, now we gotta get this guy.

Mike Sid

David,
Don't you also find it unusual that Hellmuth has been playing an awful lot lately. In addition, he has been crushing the 25/50 games. Usually he will hover around even or lose 2BI and quit, but he has been decimating the games right now. Every time I look he has like 20-25K stacks. Kinda strange. You should prob also keep your eyes (HH) on him.

I truly believe that Phil is innocent in this whole matter, but I do believe he is saying things to save face for UB (many would do the same if they were representatives of a particular site). Theres no way you could read all of the evidence presented and not be convinced

Wow I am fuming right now. After talking to scratchy and looking in my db a bit, here are the hands I have that sort of have a "smoking gun" effect

nonconclusive, but take it for what it's worth

UTakeIt2

I don't have a lot of hands on him but his AF stats are 3/.86/inf
he is up 14k and winning at 122bb/100, i only have 100ish hands on him

Hand #44594320-37640 at Mississauga (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 17/Aug/07 19:57:22

Mike Drummond is at seat 0 with $3315.
IKermit is at seat 1 with $6077.20.
trambopoline is at seat 2 with $5696.
UTakeIt2 is at seat 3 with $27218.
mrwonkaman is at seat 4 with $2450.
The button is at seat 3.

mrwonkaman posts the small blind of $25.
Mike Drummond posts the big blind of $50.

Mike Drummond: -- --
IKermit: -- --
trambopoline: -- --
UTakeIt2: -- --
mrwonkaman: -- --

Pre-flop:

IKermit folds. trambopoline raises to $175.
UTakeIt2 re-raises to $600. mrwonkaman folds. Mike
Drummond folds. trambopoline calls.

Flop (board: 6h 2d 5s):

trambopoline checks. UTakeIt2 checks.

Turn (board: 6h 2d 5s 8c):

trambopoline bets $875. UTakeIt2 calls.

River (board: 6h 2d 5s 8c As):

trambopoline goes all-in for $4221. UTakeIt2 calls.




Showdown:

trambopoline shows Ts Jc.
trambopoline has Ts Jc 6h 8c As: ace high.
UTakeIt2 shows Ac Kc.
UTakeIt2 has Ac Kc 6h 8c As: a pair of aces.


Hand #44594320-37640 Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $11467.
UTakeIt2 wins $11465 with a pair of aces.


FlatBroke33, i remember playing with this guy and remember he made some sick calldowns on me.

I have 320 hands on him, he is winning at 71bb/100 and up 34k.
His AF by streets are 2/2/14

Hand #44593930-1532 at Holden (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 11/Aug/07 01:09:59

604pokerCom is at seat 0 with $9597.
Lent53 is at seat 3 with $10498.
FlatBroke33 is at seat 4 with $9289.
The button is at seat 3.

FlatBroke33 posts the small blind of $50.
604pokerCom posts the big blind of $100.

604pokerCom: -- --
Lent53: -- --
FlatBroke33: -- --

Pre-flop:

Lent53 raises to $350. FlatBroke33 calls.
604pokerCom calls.

Flop (board: As Qh 9s):

FlatBroke33 checks. 604pokerCom checks. Lent53 bets
$800. FlatBroke33 raises to $3450. 604pokerCom
folds. Lent53 goes all-in for $10148. FlatBroke33
goes all-in for $8939. Lent53 is returned $1209
(uncalled).

Turn (board: As Qh 9s Kh):

(no action in this round)


River (board: As Qh 9s Kh 6h):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

Lent53 shows Ks 8s.
Lent53 has Ks As Qh 9s Kh: a pair of kings.
FlatBroke33 shows 8d Ah.
FlatBroke33 has Ah As Qh 9s Kh: a pair of aces.


Hand #44593930-1532 Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $18928.
FlatBroke33 wins $18927 with a pair of aces.

Before you guys start flaming me, I understand that these hands could be totally standard, but these were the suspicious hands in my database. Again as gaucho and trambo said, if you can piece some pieces of the puzzle together (i.e he is cautious with top pair in another instance) it can paint a full picture.

I have withdrew basically all my money from that site.

Yeah, but its still kinda unusual that he would respond in that way. He could have pretended he was oblivious. However I guess its a pretty ridiculous claim he made unless he will be able to explain it at a later time (the part about him being a well-known player).

Cant believe hellmuth said nionio is well known. that might be the tip to everything but i have been looking over some of the HHs. Some of them are totally legit from what i can tell. Would he make these plays if he can see the hole cards?

Hand #45623277-283 at Waterbury (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 30/Aug/07 14:21:35

NioNio is at seat 2 with $10199.
boy is at seat 4 with $12948.
arbianight is at seat 5 with $13928.35.
The button is at seat 5.

NioNio posts the small blind of $50.
boy posts the big blind of $100.

NioNio: -- --
boy: -- --
arbianight: -- --

Pre-flop:

arbianight folds. NioNio raises to $300. boy
re-raises to $900. NioNio calls.

Flop (board: Qc 6d Kh):

NioNio checks. boy bets $1350. NioNio goes all-in
for $9299. boy calls.

Turn (board: Qc 6d Kh Qd):

(no action in this round)


River (board: Qc 6d Kh Qd Ad):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

NioNio shows 9s Jd.
NioNio has Jd Qc Kh Qd Ad: a pair of queens.
boy shows As Kc.
boy has As Kc Qc Kh Ad: two pair, aces and kings.


Hand #45623277-283 Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $20398.
boy wins $20397 with two pair, aces and kings.



Hand #45623277-284 at Waterbury (No Limit Hold'em)
Hand #44593996-6042 at Ann Arbor (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 12/Aug/07 04:26:42

NioNio is at seat 0 with $13584.50.
easychamp is at seat 1 with $7588.
whiteeagle is at seat 3 with $6984.60.
NDRudy46 is at seat 4 with $10647.
604pokerCom is at seat 5 with $14344.
The button is at seat 2.

whiteeagle posts the small blind of $50.
NDRudy46 posts the big blind of $100.

NioNio: -- --
easychamp: -- --
whiteeagle: -- --
NDRudy46: -- --
604pokerCom: -- --

Pre-flop:

604pokerCom folds. NioNio raises to $350. easychamp
calls. whiteeagle re-raises to $600. NDRudy46
folds. NioNio calls. easychamp calls.

Flop (board: 2c Td Jh):

whiteeagle bets $1100. NioNio calls. easychamp
calls.

Turn (board: 2c Td Jh Kc):

whiteeagle goes all-in for $5284.60. NioNio calls.
easychamp folds.

River (board: 2c Td Jh Kc 5s):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

whiteeagle shows Ac Ah.
whiteeagle has Ac Ah Td Jh Kc: a pair of aces.
NioNio mucks cards.


Hand #44593996-6042 Summary:

$2 is raked from a pot of $15769.20.
whiteeagle wins $15767.20 with a pair of aces.



Hand #44593996-6043 at Ann Arbor (No Limit Hold'em)
Hand #44593996-2980 at Ann Arbor (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 04/Aug/07 04:21:59

NioNio is at seat 0 with $37507.
_advanced is at seat 3 with $5558.30.
CormorantCarl is at seat 4 with $10200.
The button is at seat 4.

NioNio posts the small blind of $50.
_advanced posts the big blind of $100.

NioNio: -- --
_advanced: -- --
CormorantCarl: -- --

Pre-flop:

CormorantCarl raises to $350. NioNio re-raises to
$1150. _advanced goes all-in for $5558.30.
CormorantCarl folds. NioNio calls.

Flop (board: 5s 7s Qc):

(no action in this round)


Turn (board: 5s 7s Qc 8s):

(no action in this round)


River (board: 5s 7s Qc 8s Td):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

_advanced shows As Ac.
_advanced has As Ac Qc 8s Td: a pair of aces.
NioNio mucks cards.


Hand #44593996-2980 Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $11466.60.
_advanced wins $11465.60 with a pair of aces.



Hand #44593996-2981 at Ann Arbor (No Limit Hold'em)
Hand #44150261-2434 at Mississauga (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 09/Jul/07 02:50:12

mrwonkaman is at seat 0 with $3248.
NioNio is at seat 3 with $43889.60.
MUCKEMSAYUHH is at seat 4 with $5000.
The button is at seat 3.

MUCKEMSAYUHH posts the small blind of $25.
mrwonkaman posts the big blind of $50.

mrwonkaman: 4c Ad
NioNio: -- --
MUCKEMSAYUHH: -- --

Pre-flop:

NioNio raises to $175. MUCKEMSAYUHH re-raises to
$575. mrwonkaman folds. NioNio calls.

Flop (board: 6c Qs Js):

MUCKEMSAYUHH bets $1200. NioNio calls.

Turn (board: 6c Qs Js 5d):

MUCKEMSAYUHH goes all-in for $3225. NioNio calls.

River (board: 6c Qs Js 5d Kc):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

MUCKEMSAYUHH shows Qc Ah.
MUCKEMSAYUHH has Qc Ah Qs Js Kc: a pair of queens.
NioNio mucks cards.
(NioNio has Jd 8s.)


Hand #44150261-2434 Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $10050.
MUCKEMSAYUHH wins $10049 with a pair of queens.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Just a thought from a different view. Although he still won 3x 100bb or bigger pots than he lost.

I guess there are two theoretically possible answers here:

OPTION A
Player Nionio ran hotter than anyone else in the world ever has, while playing the highest stakes, against the best players in the world, and while doing this, won 3 times faster over 8k hands than anyone else ever has.

OPTION B
Player Nionio is cheating.

You should get the folks at mypokerintel to take a look at these players, and come up with an overall BB/100 win for them.

Scratchy,

Did you save the chat with Phil?

I don't know how Annie Duke feels about UB, but she said not to fret about the cheating in the Absolute Scandal.

http://www.pokerpages.com/poker-news...oyee-30036.htm

gTg