I don't know what else to tell you. For what it's worth, I've seen two other extremely good players do this before (I obviously can't mention their names), but when a player gets really hard on times and starts doubting their own play, I can very much understand why when they're emotional and hating poker that they'd want a stake with no risk for modest stakes. It's not common but I've seen it happen such that I don't treat it with disbelief. In Jose's case it was probably even more believable to me because of how much I thought getting scammed by his uncle had mentally affected him, how young and volatile he was emotionally (and un-used to downswings/running bad), and the fact that he appeared to want to invest his money offline.

Obviously in the inception of the stake, there was never any point at which he wanted to play high stakes or take on his own action. It was not assumed or agreed upon in the initial stake that this would be happening or would be a regular event. It only happened later on in the stake, which could be quite believable because he may have lost the initial "shell-shock", as you say, after half of a year. This is not to say that I know his match with INeverFold was legitimate, it may not have been. I don't know and I can't weigh in on this either way.

Also, insofar as the Isildur challenge, as I've stated before we were never willing to take Jose's action during the Isildur challenge, and he very much wanted to subsidize or sell off his Isildur action if he could get it, but I told him that would be very hard to do unless at a significant markdown. I told him if he wanted to do it he should just bite the bullet and assume the risk himself.

Either way, I'd ask you to clarify what you're insinuating here on the whole. Are you insinuating that what you've pointed out proves that the story is untrue and therefore we're lying about the accounting? Or are you trying to say that you can't believe we did not find this strange and interrogated Jose further/found out the underlying truth for ourselves? Because if it's the latter, I did not and still would not find this all that strange. If a stakee tells me he wants to take a high stakes shot and I believe that he has the money to restock any losses, I don't mind. I'm not sure if you think that the appropriate response is interrogating him at this point, but I don't honestly think that most people would in a similar situation.

You're still just not making any sense at all.

Staking Jose, a supposed 7-figure winner, 100k to play stakes as low as 3/6 without verifying any of his results makes no goddamn sense for like 5 different reasons.

What does make sense, is getting 100k onto the account of the star poker player that you invented out of thin air. And it's already been proven that you were logging into his accounts, writing his posts during the formative period of his career as a public figure in the poker world, and having all your high-profile buddies vouch for the authenticity of those claims without any proof.

That makes sense. You inventing an internet poker celebrity for profit makes sense and fits perfectly with every single event that's known to have occurred.

The story you're giving just doesn't make any sense.

You were logging into his accounts because he didn't know how to crop a photo? Are you trolling us right now?

What were the arrangements regarding profits Jungleman won on the Girahh account?

LOL ok i'm done even trying to believe Haseeb's bull****

Something much worse than what he's admitting to went down and he's just never going to tell us.

whatever it is JM's probably involved, and that's why he's still here lying to everybody

he's earning that 100k/year "lifecoach" salary

Very good catch, and I don't think this has been addressed yet.

If JM signed the contract as well, even if he didn't recall the specifics, surely he would have remembered that there was a contract in place, yes?

The contract even has Jungleman's own name in it ...

that contract is the exact opposite of "vague and open-ended"

when was this contract written, 9-10 hours ago?

DIH is like Sarah Palin. Just go away. You actually don't do anything anymore, if we don't pay attention to you, I believe you'll just sort of fizzle.

When you are doing a live audio interview?

Yeah, here's the part of the interview:


NSD: So did you have access to Jose’s accounts?
DC: No.
NSD: Not at all? So how did you… Well, just in general, you staked him, correct? You staked him with Haseeb?
DC: Yeah, yeah. I was not really managing the stake. I was just like, yeah, whatever, let’s give him money to play with.
VS: So about the stake. We’re going to ask you a bunch of questions about the stake. Just answer as much as you know. And then just let us know how you know basically, right? So Haseeb said the stake was split 50/50. Is that true? Was it 50 his money and 50 your money?
DC: Yeah, yeah. We both gave Jose $50K. That was part of how Haseeb paid me back also. Or part of how he paid part of it because Seeb wired the SamChauhan account money and then he was going to give Jose 100 total, right, and 50 of it would be mine. Money that he owed me.
VS: So the money that Haseeb gave to Jose via the SamChauhan account, the $50K that belonged to you on your stake, was money that Haseeb was repaying you for part of the prop bet. Is that correct?
DC: Yeah.
NSD: That was included in the $150K that he’s paid you back?
DC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
NSD: How did he pay you back the other $100K he paid you back?
DC: He hasn’t paid me back yet.
NSD: No, you said he paid you 150…
DC: Oh, I needed cash in Vegas, so he gave me…it was partly for, what’s it called, the NBC heads up thing. He paid me cash for that.
NSD: Ok, we don’t need all the details. Just wanted to know if he paid you in cash. Do you know the terms of the stake?
DC: Uh. [laughs] I mean, I don’t think there’s any specific terms. It’s [laughing]
NSD: Do you know what percent of the profits you were supposed to get?
DC: I think 50? That I actually don’t know.
NSD: So you guys each got 50. When you say 50, you mean 50% of Jose’s profits went to you and Haseeb combined?
DC: Yeah.
VS: How many times did you actually talk to Haseeb about this stake?
DC: A few times. Basically, how it was presented to me was like, ok, Jose needs a stake. [background noise] I’m pretty sure it was 50. [inaudible, background noise] The percent really doesn’t matter unless Seeb’s going to cheat me or something, which I don’t think is going to happen. As long as things are
[inaudible] And 50 is probably right. But it was presented to me like, ok, Jose needs a stake because his uncle scammed him and he bought a house for $800K or whatever. And… [inaudible]
VS: So was it Jose that told you both that he bought the house, or did Haseeb verify any of this information?
DC: Haseeb….Seeb…Jose told me though Haseeb, I believe. He didn’t tell me directly. [inaudible] He bought like an $800K house or something.
[25:00 minute mark]
VS: You know now that that house was never purchased, right?
DC: Why is that?
VS: It’s just been confirmed. Jose later said that he never bought the house.
DC: Oh. What the ****?
NSD: Yeah, Jose lied about everything it looks like. You understand that, right?
DC: Yeah, well…
NSD: I mean he probably didn’t have $800K to buy a house.
DC: Well, I do have reason to believe he has some sort of money.
NSD: What’s that?
DC: Because after the scam came out, he asked me if it would be a good idea to try to bribe the guys, like $500K, and this was really strange to me because, like, how does he have the money to do that? So, I asked him, like, how does he have that? And he’s like I have more. So apparently he has something. Hopefully that’s true.
NSD: He asked you to bribe the guys $500K not to come out with the story?
DC: No. He asked me if it was a good idea if he should bribe them.
NSD: Oh, yeah, sorry, that’s what I meant to say. That’s what he asked you, right?
DC: Yeah.
NSD: And did you think that was a reasonable thing to ask?
DC: I was really shocked by that in general. I mean, I’m not sure how to answer that question. It’s definitely unethical.
NSD: I

You should read his previous post in the thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&postcount=88

"Jose/Jungle will need to verify all of this, because I am about to pull this from memory and I have not verified any of this. But Jose told me that he played against this guy INEVERFOLD (who according to some chatter from 2p2 that I read was from Portugal) on his own money at 50/100 near the end of the month of the Bluff Challenge. He asked for us to take his action and we unequivocally said we wouldn't, so he took it on himself. "


You're basically taking everything you want to believe and taking random pieces of info. and making it into a misleading story.

He says that Jose's poker results or personal finances were never verified. So if they somehow convinced themselves that Jose has personal funds he doesnt want to use then its not unreasonable for them to stake him, under the (false?) impression that he is a winning player.

Also, about how Jose had money a few months down the line to play 50/100 on his own is not something they bothered to look into and they've said many times, including itt, they should have done more research on Jose.

Also, has been mentioned that Dog didn't voluntarily recommend Jose play Isildur but suggested that it might not be a bad move, after Jose brought it up.

Basically, everything can be slightly misconstrued to make it sound bad if you don't want to believe it.

While initially I thought how can his agent not know about the loc challenge, I don't find it impossible that after Jose had found an official agent, Dog/Jungle weren't as much in tune with every single thing Jose was involved in, especially after Black Friday.

Think of it this way. They've admitted to a lot of stuff now, so if they were aware of it, they might as well just say about this too. No reason to admit to everything but that. Especially if he's not planning on coming back.

At this point most people have made up their mind. They're either gonna believe what was said in OP or not. It's kind of lame to bring up questions that have been answered before and Dog writing another three paragraphs repeating himself and/or to misconstrue what he said and then seeing him 'correcting' it.

I also see no problem if a live interview is not done. I think Q&A in thread is better so that way people can ask all kinds of questions and he can answer them clearly without being short or leaving out something in an interview. See what happened with Jungle's interview.

Much rather see new questions or get this thing closed.

TTHRIC

they seem to be acting like JM and Girah barely know each other, and yet they were getting ready to LIVE TOGETHER

and when JM was denied entry to Canada, JM/Girah/DIH decided "oh well I guess we'll all live in portugal"

them living together was an even more important factor than the country they were going to live in, and yet we're supposed to believe JM and Girah barely spoke

DIH seems to constantly push the idea that JM and Girah weren't closely involved

it'd make sense for those three to try to preserve JM's name over the other two, considering his name is the most valuable

but this is all bull****

When I originally wrote the contract, I forwarded it to Daniel and he replied (as did I and Jose) as mentioned in the contract, "I agree to the terms of this contract" or whatever it was. Jungle probably didn't read the whole thing, and considering that the contract was put into effect several months before we actually dumped him money and was used as a loose guide (since the contract basically says in it, we will let you know what stakes you can and can't play and stop losses at any given time, so follow our instructions not listed in this contract), I am not surprised that he didn't remember. This may seem suspicious, but my personal opinion is that it's pretty unsurprising, knowing Jungle.

If you had asked me what was or wasn't in the contract before I looked at it again, I would probably not have been able to tell you either. It was mostly a formality sort of thing.

A big thanks to PSUStudent for helping me reply/reiterate previous statements. Duly appreciated.

Profits Jungleman won on the Girahh account were all Jungle's it was assumed.

I need to sleep now, will reply to more in the morning and then make my final post sometime in the afternoon tomorrow.

Well, I can dig it, but it comes down to the benefit of the doubt. Of course Jungleman wouldn't remember the details of the contract. Most people don't remember everything in the contracts they sign, in fact most aren't ever aware of everything, in regards to fine print and legalese, etc.
HOWEVER, people do remember they sign contracts, and when faced with a line of questioning like in that interview, the response is invariably 'Uh, I really don't know or remember, but LET ME GRAB THE CONTRACT and tell you.' This is why written contracts exist, so they can be referred to when the memory isn't sufficient. You have to understand that this is the reaction people will have, and it comes down to just how much they are willing to give JM's absent-mindedness.

p.s. To be more succinct, people will always acknowledge a paper trail save for when that trail will damage them.

if vanessa cannot do the interview, i will volunteer to do it tomorrow afternoon EST (so like 20ish hours from now?). i promise to have it be brief but hopefully thorough. i cannot think of anything specifically new that will need to be asked, i think it would primarily just be to get his voice on the record so people can get a read on the situation in real time. hopefully i'll also think of good follow up questions.

obviously it is up to dog to accept, but fwiw i have been extremely reasonable since i said "you're hiding something, you're guilty until you can prove yourself innocent"... and it turned out you were, in fact, hiding something.

No problem man.

So you thought he was in emotional disrepair and you decided that would be a good time to stake him

Right, I'm not saying this was all one big conversation. But you have to admit it's odd that the very reasons you claim he needed a stake are the very reasons why he wouldn't do the things he did (like try playing 50/100 vs Isildur). So either he's fundamentally irrational and doesn't understand that 50/100 is bigger than 5/10 or something isn't adding up

I'm insinuating that your story is untrue. I'm insinuating that you're trying to explain your involvement with Jose as not at all shady, so rather than you being in on his being all hype and pumping up his rep, you concoct this story where the wool has been over your eyes the whole time.

But for that to be true:

a) You would have to be so astronomically idiotic that you didn't think "hmm, why's he need a stake?" but instead just threw him a 6-figure bankroll

b) he would have to be super-rich, still want the comfort of not having his own $ at risk at 6-max, his bread and butter, but every once in a while play 50/100 HU all his own money

I highly doubt you were blind to his fraudulent results. For that to be true, you would need to not only be insanely lazy (which I can see) but also insanely stupid. Like, even the dumbest NVGer, if he saw a thread "I made 1.8 mil, got scammed, bit of life tilt, need a stake for 5/10" would know to laugh the request out of the room.

And I realize there's a possible world out there where everything coincides just right, you're insanely lazy and stupid about staking when 6 figures are involved, Jose doesn't want to play 5/10 6m on his own but does want to play 50/100, and your whole story is true. But there's also a world in which somebody who's already shown a willingness to lie to the community on multiple occasions is super shady and has something to hide and has concocted another bull**** story to try deflecting criticism, well aware that as long as he can explain away inconsistencies already pointed out that nobody will figure out what he really did.

The second world seems way more likely than the first

doesn't it seem at least possible that jose could set up a 50/100 sesh via scam or vs. one of his friends to bump his stats, make dih/jm/whomever think he can beat hs hunl and back him for isildur or higher? not saying thats the case, but a possibility

This happened Haseeb.

I have known Ashton all my life, and even though he can be a crazy kid sometimes (He has had his issues with Alcohol and other substances), I have no reason to not believe him when he tells me you threatened him. Why would he say something like that? It doesn’t make sense whatsoever, but rest assured, I will get to the bottom of this.

DIH, I'm giving you serious heartfelt advice right now. You're only 21 years old, really could practically be my kid (I'm 37). I never played high stakes like you but I do have life experience.

Tell the entire truth--really the entire truth--and you will get completely slaughtered. I am guessing what you've done is bad enough that nobody will really forgive you in the community after you admit it. And you're desperately trying to avoid that still.

But if you just tell it all, you will unburden yourself. And after that, you should endeavor to be the most honest and forthright person you can be. That will be your vindication--that for the rest of your life you will be a standup guy instead of a liar who says whatever he needs to, for his own convenience.

I can tell you from my life experience that being truthful now and onward will ultimately be the best thing you've ever done and save you quite a bit of pain.

The other road is much less pretty and this is just a taste of what's to come if you can't figure this out now.

Good luck, sincerely.

Here's what Bikini Wax said earlier in chat about who did the legwork on verifying stakees and results:
"thats cuz me and ludi did all the background checks"
"and he was a fkn useless tool"
(he = haseeb qureshi)

Bikini also said he had nothing to do with Jose.

I really have no idea why this is even being brought up as if it's relevant to the current mess you've involved yourself in. I guess you can't help yourself.

This is Bikini Wax (i don't have access to my 2+2 account due to forced reformat)

The staking business we ran in 2009 went well and I believe created a mutually beneficial relationship between the stakees and backers, but due to Dog's lackluster work ethic we disbanded it and went our separate ways.

The background checks were done by me and Ludi, DIH really didn't have any active part in the backing business outside of providing his share of start up money and coaching (which most stakees we're unsatisfied with at the time)

We didn't stake Girah or have any part in the current drama in this thread, I just thought I'd clear that up.

kini:

i wasn't looking to further associate your name with this mess, just stating that this staking arrangement indeed happened. the poster i replied to seemed to doubt that.

my memory of it is fuzzy, but it did seem like HQ had a

1: create staking arrangement
2: ???
3: profit

attitude about it.

ya no worries, just wanted to clear that up since a lot of people I know are involved in this mess

based on the clarity of this post, i would like to hear (actually see is probably best via skype chat/video) FWF conduct this interview. if not him, aejones. also if NoahSD can do it once again it would be amazing. The smarter the interviewer, the less easy it is for the subject to pull the wool over our collective eyes, so to speak.

thanks to vanessa and noah so far for their amazing work, the entire community owes you a debt of gratitude.
dlpnyc21

FWF doing the interview, especially by himself so it gets into a really deep 2 way dialogue, would be the nuts.