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Stoxtrader cheating/multi accounting discussion Stoxtrader cheating/multi accounting discussion

03-17-2010 , 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LucidDream
ActionStan,

u can't compare what Stoxtrader has done here to what Guy did. for starters Guy had no intention of doing it to gain an edge nor did he gain an edge. im sure any regs that played w/ him knew w/in 5 minutes that it was him.
Hi LD,

Not really trying to compare the two. Just saying there are a range of opinions on the wrongness of stoxtrader vid account + other account back in the day. I don't play anywhere close to these games so I'm not passing judgement, just trying to summarize other posts, including the Guy exception.

The new MA allegation is clearly considered wrong.

Fair?
03-17-2010 , 09:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAT MOOSE
Also, is it true that durrrr and cole south have never been spotted in the same room together?
i have seen durrrr and cole south together before. sundowner's in niagara falls, 2006. it's a strip club :P
03-17-2010 , 09:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bschr04

the only thing "unclear" is that A implies B. Does playing less 20BB pots against one opponent compared to the field imply soft playing? Are there alternate explanations? (I think it does imply it- but you guys are the poker pros, I just crunch numbers)

.
thanks for the clarification
03-17-2010 , 09:21 PM
It's pretty typical of poker players' "ethics" that they consider it a hanging crime for a good player to multiaccount to get action and not one for a fish to do it. If we just did not accept double standards, we would find many fewer grey areas.

That's a great Cliffs, ActionStan. Recommended for newcomers.
03-17-2010 , 09:21 PM
In the last few days various allegations have been made that I have played on multiple accounts on FTP and Stars and that by doing so I have violated the terms and conditions of the sites and also cheated in ways including colluding. The relevant facts are:

(1) At no point have I ever colluded. This is a categorical denial without exceptions.
(2) I played on a single account on FTP and a single account on PokerStars for the previous four year period through January 2010. The only exception to this was when I made instructional videos.
(3) In January 2010 I created one new account on FTP and one new account on Stars. I played on these accounts for roughly one month and have not used them since. During that time these were the only accounts on which I played at these sites. I have not played poker since March 7th, and will not play again until I receive communication from a pokersite that I am able to do so.

Since I have admitted to breaking the TOS of stars and ftp I don't plan on playing any poker until I receive communication from the pokersites that it is ok to do so, and at that time I can share the details of any information I recieve from them. FTP and pokerstars are aware of the allegations and I have encouraged them to do a full and thorough investigation to confirm that what I say is completely accurate. I would like to have the opportunity to continue to be a contributing member of both stoxpoker and 2+2, I ask for your patience while these matters are sorted out over the next few days.
03-17-2010 , 09:22 PM
So, no real new information?
03-17-2010 , 09:23 PM
I think a big part of the problem is the T&C that sites have. There should not be any rules that are not enforceable. Lee Jones recently wrote an article for CardPlayer about this exact issue, about how online poker needs to grow past this and remove non-enforceable rules about sharing hand histories, changing screen names and one person to a hand, etc. These rules cannot be enforced and are very hard to prove when allegations come up.

With multiple screen names or changing screen names, I know there is an edge to be had during the start of a HU match or for X amount of time/hands in FR or 6max, that should just be a normal aspect of online poker. You should never assume anything about a player and make judgements based on the game play and not the screen name. Everyone should already be paying attention and adjusting. A player's tendencies are rarely static anyways, especially at higher stakes. What I'm getting at is...the non-enforceable rules should be changed to LEVEL the playing field, then EVERYONE will have the exact same edge as someone that is multiaccounting and it will be a normal aspect of online poker.

I'm 100% aginst collusion and these rules SHOULD be enforceable. There is nothing that should prevent FTP from investing some time & money to develop pro-active collusion detection. If a group of players can determine statistical anomalies with a relatively small sample size of hands, software should be able to do an even better job of this. I'm a software engineer by profession and I can think of multiple ways to have decent collusion detection without giving the project much thought. I've always thought FTP had such software, but you would think they could catch cases like this before they get outted via an online discussion board. If infact collusion actually took place.
03-17-2010 , 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAT MOOSE
Theres only one other guy (micon) and i can vouch for his character/integrity. I'm friends with him so take that into consideration, but they have invited you to post your reasons for your statement on their site. He does love a good scandal but that doesn't make him a shady guy.
I didn't like how they handled the whole Brandi thing. Right now on the front page of their site it says that 2p2 is engaged in a coverup regarding this current scandal, which is entirely false. Other specific examples aren't coming to mind but I've always had an impression of them as being more interested in sensationalism than accuracy or responsibility when it comes to their reporting. Questioning their "integrity" was going too far, I apologize.
03-17-2010 , 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoxtrader
In the last few days various allegations have been made that I have played on multiple accounts on FTP and Stars and that by doing so I have violated the terms and conditions of the sites and also cheated in ways including colluding. The relevant facts are:

(1) At no point have I ever colluded. This is a categorical denial without exceptions.
(2) I played on a single account on FTP and a single account on PokerStars for the previous four year period through January 2010. The only exception to this was when I made instructional videos.
(3) In January 2010 I created one new account on FTP and one new account on Stars. I played on these accounts for roughly one month and have not used them since. During that time these were the only accounts on which I played at these sites. I have not played poker since March 7th, and will not play again until I receive communication from a pokersite that I am able to do so.

Since I have admitted to breaking the TOS of stars and ftp I don't plan on playing any poker until I receive communication from the pokersites that it is ok to do so, and at that time I can share the details of any information I recieve from them. FTP and pokerstars are aware of the allegations and I have encouraged them to do a full and thorough investigation to confirm that what I say is completely accurate. I would like to have the opportunity to continue to be a contributing member of both stoxpoker and 2+2, I ask for your patience while these matters are sorted out over the next few days.
Did you play on the 40putts account? Please choose only one answer:

[ ] yes
[ ] no
03-17-2010 , 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ike
I didn't like how they handled the whole Brandi thing. Right now on the front page of their site it says that 2p2 is engaged in a coverup regarding this current scandal, which is entirely false. Other specific examples aren't coming to mind but I've always had an impression of them as being more interested in sensationalism than accuracy or responsibility when it comes to their reporting. Questioning their "integrity" was going too far, I apologize.
tough but fair, sir
03-17-2010 , 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoxtrader
In the last few days various allegations have been made that I have played on multiple accounts on FTP and Stars and that by doing so I have violated the terms and conditions of the sites and also cheated in ways including colluding. The relevant facts are:

(1) At no point have I ever colluded. This is a categorical denial without exceptions.
(2) I played on a single account on FTP and a single account on PokerStars for the previous four year period through January 2010. The only exception to this was when I made instructional videos.
(3) In January 2010 I created one new account on FTP and one new account on Stars. I played on these accounts for roughly one month and have not used them since. During that time these were the only accounts on which I played at these sites. I have not played poker since March 7th, and will not play again until I receive communication from a pokersite that I am able to do so.

Since I have admitted to breaking the TOS of stars and ftp I don't plan on playing any poker until I receive communication from the pokersites that it is ok to do so, and at that time I can share the details of any information I recieve from them. FTP and pokerstars are aware of the allegations and I have encouraged them to do a full and thorough investigation to confirm that what I say is completely accurate. I would like to have the opportunity to continue to be a contributing member of both stoxpoker and 2+2, I ask for your patience while these matters are sorted out over the next few days.
Nick, is there any reason why you want to wait with answering this question:

Have you played under the account 40putts?

[ ] yes
[ ] no

This would be a relevant fact. If you are innocent of all this Nick, so be it, but the answer to that one question which is a simple yes or no has taken an awful long time, and you seem very reluctant to answer it. This could indicate a reluctance from your side in order to see what eventual evidence or information is put forward / surfaces and then arrange your statements according to that. Doubtlessly you are an intelligent person, so you should know that your reluctance to answer this further weakens your case in regards to the collusion. If you are in fact innocent, do yourself a favour and answer this.

Last edited by boywonder; 03-17-2010 at 09:33 PM.
03-17-2010 , 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoxtrader
In the last few days various allegations have been made that I have played on multiple accounts on FTP and Stars and that by doing so I have violated the terms and conditions of the sites and also cheated in ways including colluding. The relevant facts are:

(1) At no point have I ever colluded. This is a categorical denial without exceptions.
(2) I played on a single account on FTP and a single account on PokerStars for the previous four year period through January 2010. The only exception to this was when I made instructional videos.
(3) In January 2010 I created one new account on FTP and one new account on Stars. I played on these accounts for roughly one month and have not used them since. During that time these were the only accounts on which I played at these sites. I have not played poker since March 7th, and will not play again until I receive communication from a pokersite that I am able to do so.

Since I have admitted to breaking the TOS of stars and ftp I don't plan on playing any poker until I receive communication from the pokersites that it is ok to do so, and at that time I can share the details of any information I recieve from them. FTP and pokerstars are aware of the allegations and I have encouraged them to do a full and thorough investigation to confirm that what I say is completely accurate. I would like to have the opportunity to continue to be a contributing member of both stoxpoker and 2+2, I ask for your patience while these matters are sorted out over the next few days.
if some lowlife like myself did the same thing i doubt i would be allowed to play. if they let you then we all need to be allowed to multi-account i guess. what makes you any different?
03-17-2010 , 09:31 PM
It really looks like he's waiting to see whether Tilt have enough evidence to nail him. An innocent man does not need to do that before confirming which accounts he's used. I've taken the view that he's innocent till proven guilty and may well be the victim of ****stirring because he committed a minor wrong but jeez, you want to be as straight as possible when you're innocent here.
03-17-2010 , 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoxtrader
In the last few days various allegations have been made that I have played on multiple accounts on FTP and Stars and that by doing so I have violated the terms and conditions of the sites and also cheated in ways including colluding. The relevant facts are:

(1) At no point have I ever colluded. This is a categorical denial without exceptions.
(2) I played on a single account on FTP and a single account on PokerStars for the previous four year period through January 2010. The only exception to this was when I made instructional videos.
(3) In January 2010 I created one new account on FTP and one new account on Stars. I played on these accounts for roughly one month and have not used them since. During that time these were the only accounts on which I played at these sites. I have not played poker since March 7th, and will not play again until I receive communication from a pokersite that I am able to do so.

Since I have admitted to breaking the TOS of stars and ftp I don't plan on playing any poker until I receive communication from the pokersites that it is ok to do so, and at that time I can share the details of any information I recieve from them. FTP and pokerstars are aware of the allegations and I have encouraged them to do a full and thorough investigation to confirm that what I say is completely accurate. I would like to have the opportunity to continue to be a contributing member of both stoxpoker and 2+2, I ask for your patience while these matters are sorted out over the next few days.

Simple question: Why do you keep refusing to answer to the allegation that you were 40putts?

Every time you post and fail to address this, you look more guilty.
03-17-2010 , 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomethingFishy
if some lowlife like myself did the same thing i doubt i would be allowed to play. if they let you then we all need to be allowed to multi-account i guess. what makes you any different?
I have to say it really irritates me when people say this. Loads of lowlifes like yourself have been caught with second accounts. Almost always the site transfers the money back to the old account and closes the newer one.
03-17-2010 , 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Banana
It really looks like he's waiting to see whether Tilt have enough evidence to nail him. An innocent man does not need to do that before confirming which accounts he's used.
completely agree

i really really hope his statement doesn't foreshadow taylor backing stox, because that kinda seems where this is going if he talked to taylor beforehand. i pray im wrong

Last edited by nycballer; 03-17-2010 at 09:41 PM.
03-17-2010 , 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by waow
i have seen durrrr and cole south together before. sundowner's in niagara falls, 2006. it's a strip club :P
we streaked through a dennys later that night for like 4k total lol
03-17-2010 , 09:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Banana
It really looks like he's waiting to see whether Tilt have enough evidence to nail him. An innocent man does not need to do that before confirming which accounts he's used. I've taken the view that he's innocent till proven guilty and may well be the victim of ****stirring because he committed a minor wrong but jeez, you want to be as straight as possible when you're innocent here.

HE'S NOT INNOCENT. haven't u been reading every post he's made in this thread? in the last post he just admitted he's played on 3 accounts on both Stars and FTP over the past 4 years.

at this point its only a matter of if he committed the even worse act of collusion.
03-17-2010 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustmuck
I have to say it really irritates me when people say this. Loads of lowlifes like yourself have been caught with second accounts. Almost always the site transfers the money back to the old account and closes the newer one.
im not really sure what your point is, i mean if there is one. i guess that since other people have done it then hes A-OK?
03-17-2010 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by durrrr
we streaked through a dennys later that night for like 4k total lol
yah right in front of gobboboy
03-17-2010 , 09:43 PM
Nick,

When you come round to admitting that you're 40putts, I'd like to discuss migrating your gold to the hsnl regs that you cheated.

Adam
03-17-2010 , 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creedofhubris
I posted the data in the original thread last year about kinetica and 40putts colluding. I gathered my data from two sources: tableratings and my own db (I used to be a regular in the CAP rooms). For this post Iíll just stick to the data I got from tableratings.

I tried to use tableratings to look at the new username, bulltf0rdtuff, but thereís not a lot to work with since stox has got few hands under this nick and he stopped playing a few weeks ago. This means I couldnít compare session times, which had been a blatant tipoff before.

However, I can compare how often they get to showdown against each other, just using tableratings, so you all can play with the data if you want. I took the guys I recognize as being HS/CAP regs who bulltf0rdtuff had a bunch of hands against, and compared how often they get to flops and showdowns together:

bulltf0rdtuff

vs kinetica: 645 hands, 13 showdowns, 51 flops.___________________________________________2.0% showdown, 7.9% flop
vs the field (scubba, joao barbosa, ghostrideit, d_perignon): 1346 hands, 68 showdowns, 214 flops. 5.1% showdown, 15.9% flop

Suggestive. Now hereís 40putts:

vs kinetica: 9673 hands, 158 showdowns, 659 flops:_________________________________________1.6% showdown, 6.8% flop
vs the field (mbolt1, cometobutthead, willb77,clockwyze): 10337 hands, 1769 flops, 634 showdowns. 6.1% showdown, 17.1% flop
vs nit (leatherass9): 2096 hands, 71 showdowns, 257 flops: ___________________________________3.4% showdown, 12.2% flop

Leatherass plays very tight, and 40putts saw about twice as many flops and showdowns vs him than vs kinetica. That suggests both that itís not just a matter of your standard shortstacker exploitation of looser foes, and that leatherass was not in on whatever deal they had going.

The session times that I compared in my last post were the most blatant tipoff that, if nothing else, 40putts and kinetica were consciously logging hours together. Let me walk you through this: this was all of the sessions that 40Putts played over a 2-week period. That was all the data Tableratings had available when I made the post.

To help you see the trend, Iíve bolded the times when they were both in action. Look how closely those sessions overlap! Itís very unlikely that two grinders who are not playing together would consistently have session times that match like this. And these guys were shortstacking 5-10 and playing CAP 5-10, both of which run all day at FTP, so itís not a matter of games breaking or starting up at key times.

In these sessions, 40putts played about 32 hours, over 14 sessions, over 8 days. For about 25 of those hours, 80% of the time, he overlapped with kinetica.

3/09
Date__40Putts_______Kinetica

1____2:55-5:38_____3:38-5:26

2 ___10:29-1:22_____9:58-1:21
_____5:28-8:53_____5:10-9:00

_____10:06-11:45



3____11:47-12:42
_____2:20-5:20____2:39-5:07
_____8:57-10:55____9:15-11:02



5____11:05-1:07

6____10:39-12:06

8____11:54 -1:25____11:04-1:28
______5:07 -9:23_____5:07-10:17
_____11:32-2:03____11:11-1:53


13____10:33-11:38

14_____5:04-8:18____4:18-8:18


I complained to Tilt about these guys when I discovered this last March, and I know other people did too. Why they didnít take strong action I have no idea. I certainly considered 40putts and kinetica to be in collusion and I stopped sitting at games where they were both playing, and I wasn't the only one. I am unhappy but unsurprised to see that they're apparently still up to their old tricks.
hmmm, the other mentioned accounts look surprisingly similar?!
all data was taken from tableratings

gr3atvlewbr0

vs LittleZen: 593 hands, 8 showdowns, 27 flops.__________________________________1.3% showdown, 4.6% flop
vs the field (matate, Kapiti, 0Human0, myzikant): 1280 hands, 92 showdowns, 143 flops. 7.2% showdown, 11.2% flop
vs nit (leatherass9): 270 hands, 21 showdowns, 11 flops: __________________________7.8% showdown, 4.1% flop

Suggestive. Now hereís knockstiff:

vs LittleZen: 4829 hands, 82 showdowns, 315 flops:_________________________________1.7% showdown, 6.5% flop
vs the field (ADZ124, takechip, Himan33, ~diQ~): 7125 hands, 1056 flops, 424 showdowns. 6.0% showdown, 14.8% flop
vs nit (leatherass9): 877 hands, 39 showdowns, 123 flops: ___________________________4.4% showdown, 14.0% flop
03-17-2010 , 09:48 PM
How the hell have Cardrunner's PR people not come up with anything better than that in the time that they knew shtt was going to get out?

There is no way they can lie about this really. If he says he was playing a different account than 40putts it will be easy to verify or disprove with the dates just by checking PTR. And even if Full Tilt's investigation comes back inconclusive there is already statistical proof ITT.
03-17-2010 , 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoxtrader
(2) I played on a single account on FTP and a single account on PokerStars for the previous four year period through January 2010. The only exception to this was when I made instructional videos.
Is this even a valid exception? Also, now that you admit to having "migrated to a new account" do you intend on returning all monies you won under that new name back to the player pool in those games?
03-17-2010 , 09:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoxtrader
In the last few days various allegations have been made that I have played on multiple accounts on FTP and Stars and that by doing so I have violated the terms and conditions of the sites and also cheated in ways including colluding. The relevant facts are:

(1) At no point have I ever colluded. This is a categorical denial without exceptions.
(2) I played on a single account on FTP and a single account on PokerStars for the previous four year period through January 2010. The only exception to this was when I made instructional videos.
(3) In January 2010 I created one new account on FTP and one new account on Stars. I played on these accounts for roughly one month and have not used them since. During that time these were the only accounts on which I played at these sites. I have not played poker since March 7th, and will not play again until I receive communication from a pokersite that I am able to do so.

Since I have admitted to breaking the TOS of stars and ftp I don't plan on playing any poker until I receive communication from the pokersites that it is ok to do so, and at that time I can share the details of any information I recieve from them. FTP and pokerstars are aware of the allegations and I have encouraged them to do a full and thorough investigation to confirm that what I say is completely accurate. I would like to have the opportunity to continue to be a contributing member of both stoxpoker and 2+2, I ask for your patience while these matters are sorted out over the next few days.

I bet this is what everyone was waiting for, just laughable and a real shame.

      
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