Win rates with and without the other player at the table please.

No, it is relevant in the sense that it adds substance to the source. That is why it was posted in the first place.

wtf you are basically saying people with a pp account are scum because the stupid us government at that time released this ****ing uigea! are you always doing what the state says you are allowed to? if am smoking a blunt i am scum or what? grow a brain!

Look the only reason the Party Poker thing should even be mentioned re: Stox is because it would question his character and honesty a bit more. I don't think there is anything shady/scummy/unethical about playing on a European site as an American if you can find a way to do it. I have no idea how to even set up such an account and probably wouldn't care to as I play pretty exclusively on FTP and PS and always have.

I know a bunch of people who do it or have done it in the past, and I have never once thought about 'outting' them to the community. The main reason they prefer to keep it hush hush is for fear of the site finding out, not the players finding out their screen names. Hell, can't you change your screen name periodically on Party Poker and a few other Euro sites as it is?

Does it allow these people to make more money than me? Maybe, I don't know, and it doesn't particularly bother me either way. If I got caught up in the 'jealous of other poker players success' thing I would have been driven mad years ago (I can give you the exact date ).

I hate to say it Acer, but you did keep this to yourself for 2+ years too...I know and agree with your post and why/how everyone else keeps these secrets, but people need to step up more and more and reveal as many cheaters as possible. There are millions of players online, and we have just a handful of scums being outed out each year, and hundreds being protected by their friends and those who are afraid. this is truly sad.

not too late, even now you can think of ways to out the cheater(s)

That's the account that I switched to briefly (a couple weeks in the early summer of '07, I think) when I started coaching at Stoxpoker. I was (at first) concerned about people using what I was saying about my game in videos against me in heads-up matches. Eventually I decided against it, since there are issues like 'what do I do if someone who sometimes, but not always, quits me sits at my heads-up table?' (I would just dodge the people/friends who normally wouldn't play HU with me) and it didn't really seem like a tenable long term solution. I already brought this up on the Stoxpoker thread (minus the actual screen name). I'm assuming this is Dusty whispering in the background, trying to cause as much damage as possible? The account was borrowed from a friend of his, and his social circle would be the only ones to know the actual account name, I think. I have zero problem with outing this.

maybe we need a 'confessional' thread or a 'call out the cheaters' thread...When will you people start naming names? just remember, for the few that you know who 'cheat' and may not effect you personally, there are hundreds of others who are also cheating and playing with you in every tourney and cash game and you have no idea. We need to break this 'Green Wall of Silence'

It IS scummy and un-ethical, and shady...if you are willing to break this rule/law and lie to do so, then how can anyone trust that you won't break other rules/laws if for whatever reason you don't agree with such rules and laws? where is the limit? where will you stop? how far are you willing to go?

and no, none of us are perfect and we have ALL made mistakes in our pasts and will continue to do so, but consciously and blatantly coming out and saying that breaking laws that we happen not to agree with is OK is very shady and scummy indeed.

bk is 100% correct, it doesn't matter. it's not unethical, it's just against the site's ToS. drop it already, so the real issues can be focused on. multi-accounting and especially colluding are far, far more serious charges.

Bryce, any impression I have ever been given of you is a good one, I originally defended you in this thread, and I never dislike / hate people, I only dislike or disagree with their actions. Also, I believe if anybody here has done something wrong there is room to just repent and move on, but some honesty is needed first.

Two things:

One: You did not out this. If that was the case, you wouldn´t have waited until it was put in this thread by myself. I had no clear evidence of this, only hearsay, but you have now confirmed this. This further strenghtens the source / sources.

Second: Are you in all sincerity telling me that the reason you switched to this account had nothing to do with not getting action on the freedom25 account?

Maybe some people are willing to go as far as they don't gain an advantage over anyone? You realize this logic is the same logic that would lead to writing down lisence plate #'s and reporting people you see going 45 in a 35 zone for speeding right? I mean if they'll break the law and go over the speed limit how can you trust them not to rape and murder your children? omg the guy just tapped his brakes and didn't stop completely at that stop sign how can I trust him in my house he might decide to steal all my jewelry? If he'll break one rule clearly he'll break all of them.

great detailed post before, and it clearly shows that you have a lot more to say. This thread is about Stox and a few other things, and perhaps after due consideration you might decide to start another thread with all the information you have.

I think you said something to the effect of 'you are truly disgusted' after all the information you've been given which goes beyond Stox...There is no reason other parties, if guilty, should stay anonymous. Now that this issue has once again come to the top, why not reveal the name of more cheaters, if in fact they are cheaters?

this euro site and vpn use ethics discussion is sidetracking the crux of this thread.

I'm convinced that Leatherass is one if not the only one sending "insider" info in these emails to Viffer and Boywonder. I would not be surprised if he was the one who was behind breaking the Stoxtrader and Jason Ho info on 2+2. Todd Terry made a fantastic post a couple pages back: the evidence that has been presented, regardless of if the source can be verified, is damning to the point where it is almost impossible for it to be completely fabricated by someone who just has a grudge. The depth of knowledge about the inner workings of CR/Stox, with references to specific screen names means that this info is almost certainly from someone who knows what they are talking about, therefor should be publicly presented on 2+2 (referring to the original viffer email that got deleted).

I feel like someone should step up and make a legitimate effort to buy a large database of hand histories, along with collect hand histories from the regs in those games willing to give them away, and import them into 1 hem database. This process shouldn't take more than a weeks time, and the resulting evidence should be pretty conclusive for collusion over such a large sample. There are different levels how shady stoxtraders actions are, but i think there is a difference between multi accounting and straight up collusion.

bringing up multiple account accusations from 2007 is pointless. beyond pointless. everyone that played 25/50+ (or the limit equivalents) regularly in 2007 either played on a diff account for at least one hand of poker or wasn't trying to win money.

so you drive 75 on the highway instead of the 65 how do we know you are not raping little children?

but seriously we should keep this bull**** out of this thread.

Why didn't you just open up a few SNGs to negate your edge??



(fine, i went for the low-hanging fruit, but that's exactly what this kinda lame excuse reminded me immediately; in short: any time we're faced with a poker player copping to something along the lines of "There was an edge to be had, but I didn't exploit it because I felt it was wrong", well, you're just not going to convince many people of that and, imo, you'll end up wishing you hadn't admitted to it in the first place. p.s. i miss the tico bonomo gimmick acct -- always a reliable laugh)

Perhaps you could have outed the name before someone else brought it up? but that would be too forthcoming...and if no one else had brought this up, you would have probably assumed that the 'secret' will remain within 'Dusty's' close circle of friends? just wow

you are wrong fwiw.

I certainly wasn't anxious to volunteer it in this thread, but I basically made the exact same post in the SP thread (which has a much different tone) minus the actual account name when we were discussing multi-accounting days ago.

At that time that was never an issue. I was playing at the 50/100-200/400 level, I think, at a time when nobody really knew enough about HU LHE to tell the difference between a good and bad player, so I could usually get near instant action from more or less anyone.

haha obviously just trying to make it clear that everyone knows people used diff accounts in 2007, people didn't look at it in nearly the same light as they do now (that's not even up for debate)

just sick of the excuse "everybody did it, dont single out me, things were different" etc when really its very simple to figure out that multiaccounting is stupid. ppl were able to come to this conclusion by themselves, even in 2007!

good to put a face to such an upstanding company

stoxpoker nick grudzien

and can some of you stop derailing this thread?

im anxiously awaiting the next statements from nick, bryce, taylor, and mason

HILARIOUS

Limit Holdem has been a popular game since you were running around in diapers.

You really think people couldn't tell the difference between a good and bad player in LHE at the time, and now everyone can?

No. The reason you got action was because there were a lot of arrogant players who falsely believed themselves to be invincible. Now many of them have been knocked off their perch, so they are more cautious.

Everything you say reeks of intolerable narcissism.

With that said, I would like to know something. In your expert opinion, has Stoxtrader ever used the 40putts account?

It's from CAP games. People need to quit worrying about this issue, because most of the data presented thus far is from people who were playing the CAP games. Creed said as much, and these latest figures are also CAP figures. Remember, about 50% of 40putts's hands over his career at TR are in CAP games, and most of the data being discussed ITT is culled from CAP games. So the potential differences between short stack and big stack play going on at the same table simply do not apply.

The key difference here is that most people that were multi-accounting weren't representing a company they owned. The minute you do that you are saying you will obey by the rules 100%.

I know everyone wants to gloss over the multi accounting part because many people do it, or at the very least did it. Make no mistake about it, that was wrong but it isn't in the same league as doing it when you run a company or represent an online poker site. That point is being diminished and to me that is the single biggest affront to the poker community.

Said another way, all of the things you may need to gain an edge that are prohibited are off the table when you own a training school or represent an online poker site. This should really bother people more than it does.

Said yet another way if FTP new of multi-accounting from Stoxpoker coaches would they have done the deal they have now. I think we should presume the answer to that to be no since it would show a pattern of deception that FTP likely would not want to entertain.