Hey everyone,

I have been a somewhat regular poster in HSNL for awhile and am having a dilemma in regards to my future plans. Because HSNL has some of the smartest minds around, I was hoping to get some thoughts from you all so here it goes...

I just graduated from the University of Arizona in May w/ a double major in entrepreneurship and marketing and am trying to figure out what my next move is in life. Originally my plan was to go to a top 15 law school (3.95GPA 165 LSAT) after taking a year off to grind poker full time, but now I am starting to reevaluate everything. Let me break down each option a little more to clarify where my head is at:

Poker: I have earned my income throughout college playing MSNL and HSNL poker online. As of today (based on a very good sample size), I would expect to make anywhere from 200-500k (maybe more) playing poker for the next 12 months. The range is so wide to account for the fact that I very easily could lose motivation and only get 20-30k hands a month in. My hourly rate is about $500 an hour. The main problem w/ poker for me is that day to day, I have mixed feelings about how happy I am doing this as a living. I know this is talked about endlessly on the forums, but I just can't see myself playing poker as a career for more than another 1-2 years at most for a variety of reasons. More than anything, I feel like I am standing still playing poker and in a lot of ways am ready to enter the "real world" and begin a more socially accepted career path (I know this shouldn't matter to me, but it does).

Law school: As I mentioned, my scores are probably good enough to get me into USC/UCLA which are like 14th and 15th as far as rankings go (My GPA is way above their average, my LSAT is 1 point under their average). The obvious problem here is I am now having serious doubts about going. Even though I am good at school and it has always come very easy to me, I hate it. Like I absolutely hate studying, and obviously at a good law school that would consume my life. The other obvious thing is that it will eat away like 200k of my bankroll. Furthermore, I have heard that if I get into big law which is pretty likely, I only start at 135k a year working ridiculous hours in a job that most despise from what I have read (like 60-80 hours week). From there, I am unsure of the upside in terms of salary. It also is noteworthy that ideally I would want to have my law school apps in by 11/1, but 12/1 is the latest before my chances go down significantly. Of all thesee options, i feel like law school is in a way the least "risky" in that i will likely get into a good law school and will likely do well enough to get into big law. On the other hand, I am risking 3 years of my life and like $200k+
by going to law school if i am not happy being a lawyer.

Trading: This is something that has always interested me but I never really pursued it for no reason in particular. Jason Strasser's post in HSNL about his life as an options trader really inspired me and what what I have read about trading since then makes it sound like something that is a perfect fit for me, although I admittedly still know very, very little about trading in general or the quality of life for those who trade.

In terms of my chances of getting a job like this, I honestly don't know. Aside from my academic performance which admittedly comes from a weak undergrad school( ranking 96th, 45th among publics), I feel like my talent level is extremely high. I say this not to brag, but to give people a chance to let me know about my chances realistically. I honestly put in very little effort to get a 3.95 in college and valedictorian of my high school graduating class of over 500. I also consider myself to be very charismatic and just good at knowing what to say (again, sorry if I sound arrogant). I guess that's sort of the problem I have w/ poker: I feel like I am underachieving given my natural abilities.

I guess one other thing worth mentioning are my goals/values. Obviously money isn't everything, but it is very important to me. If I was going to quit poker here in the next 12-24 months, I would need to be making at least 6 figures. The exception to this would be trading or any other job for that matter if I made some lame salary for a year assuming the upside is ridiculously high. I have no problem busting my ass for a year on little pay if that's what it would take.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance for your help guys,

Garrett

Law is super boring. I suggest making 1.5-2 mil from poker and head into trading.

I am very close with lawyers/law students and poker players, and those two options for you are obviously on polar opposites of the spectrum. Going to law school and becoming a lawyer is one of the most secure paths you can take, and being a poker player is one of the least secure. There will always be a need for lawyers, but poker has a decidedly uncertain future. From all that I've heard, it is NOT worth going to law school unless you are super motivated to do it for whatever reason, be it like that you have a passion for the law or need a good (but not GREAT), steady salary soon. It seems like you are not particularly motivated, so my advice is DON'T do it. Law school is like college without the fun - it is a very difficult grind with far fewer options for what you can take. You are making more from poker than associates make for their first ~ten years. Between your 3 years at a top law school and ten years or so slaving away before (if) you make partner, you are giving up a large portion of your life to do something you are not all that interested in. You seem to do what to do it because it is secure, socially "acceptable" and you are guaranteed a pretty good earn, all of which are valid reasons, but from your post I can't imagine that it's worth it to you. I know very little about trading, but judging from Strassa's post and stories I've heard, the struggles and commitment necessary are analogue to law without the security (the vast majority of law school grads get good jobs and are steadily employed for a while). If you want to feel better about your role in society, volunteer. Most people into law for the security/money and trading for the money over most else, that's just how people work. You are making enough money. You will not see million dollar salaries in law for many years and trading it's a crap shoot whether you ever will (if you do, it'll be a decade I'm sure). Play poker for a few more years, volunteer, and weigh your options. You can take your money and invest personally in securities, real estate, whatever you'd like if you want a new challenge. I can't see law or trading being +EV for you, at least while poker is still fruitful. As for deciding what to do in a few years/your resume gap, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an intelligent, business-savvy employer who frowns upon your post-grad decision to make a half million dollars a year instead of slaving away to make 60k. That's just my two cents. Or more like fifty cents. Sorry for the long post. Good luck.

I just finished law school. Your LSAT is not good enough for any top 15 school (maybe not top 20 either) if you are a white male.

SSNL pays more per hour than like 5th year associates at big firms so you'll probably be back to poker pretty quickly.

I'd like to hear the reasons. I think your apparent dislike of poker is a big problem.

You're prepared to spend your first few years in trading or lawyering(whatever) working 60-80 hour weeks. If you put that kind of time into one year of poker, you'd easily make over $1m, but you seem to know that you won't be able to do that. Why not?

If you know that poker is not a long term option for you, you need to invest in your future. If taking 1-2 years to play poker won't hurt your chances much, then I say, go for it.

If 1 year off for poker badly hurts your chances of getting another job, or into a good law school, then I think you need to just play poker on the side. Actually, playing poker on the side through law school seems like a decent option, especially since you can't stand playing that many hours of poker anyways, and you find school easy.

Most people who start at big law firms don't stay there more than a few years. They use it to get some training and pay off loans before moving on. You can do a lot of different things with a law degree.

My question is why you want to be a lawyer. You seem very concerned about what law school would be like. But school is just a means to an end. You're only in law school for roughly 24 months. You're a lawyer the rest of your life. What do you find interesting about being a lawyer?

I would advise re-taking the LSAT if you're serious about law school unless you put a lot of time into it the first time.

This is a pretty good option. I know several people who graduated from law school while playing poker basically full-time. Law school is really only time-intensive the first year.

I actually enjoyed law school. But I don't know why you'd want to go if you already have a good income from poker. I think you'll be doing much better off playing poker and investing the money rather than blowing a bunch on 3 more years of school to get a job that pays less than what you're making now. If you want to do something non-corporate, like public interest law or something, you should consider going to a less expensive school. Those places usually don't require the Ivy League pedigree to work for them.

BTW, I went to the U of A for law school and am still here in Tucson. PM me if you want to meet face-to-face to talk.

Cross-post from your BFI thread.

Garrett,

We have discussed this a fair amount, and I know that your future is heavily on your mind right now. I honestly believe that you will be successful at whatever you choose assuming you give it a good effort. You have a lot of natural ability, and I hope you don't let any fears or insecurities dictate your decision here (not that you have implied it would, but worth saying).

I don't think your situation has changed much from the way it was a few weeks ago. You still know you don't want to play poker forever, and you are still unsure about law school (just a little more vocal about it now). I would recommend nearly the same advice as I gave you before. Apply to law school (for next fall) as it is a relatively simple thing to do in order to keep your immediate options open. Realize when you apply, though, that if you are accepted it doesn't necessarily mean you are going to go.

Use the next year you have to really try and figure out what you want to do. Be aware that this is a very difficult thing to do. While you may not figure out exactly what your life's work is going to be in the next year (actually, quite unlikely), you will hopefully know quite a bit more. Use that time to read trading books (as John suggested), travel, talk with other people about their professions, and really try and figure out which direction you want to go.

I think the hardest part for you is that you seem to think you have to figure this out RIGHT NOW. This is obviously a product of recently graduating, friends moving on, family inquiries, etc but you don't have to figure it all out right now. You are lucky in that you have the opportunity to take some time, make truckloads of money, and decide to do what you want to do next. This next year is a great opportunity as opposed to a stressful situation where you should feel lost.

As you know, I have an engineering degree, with a high GPA, work experience, etc and I have no idea what I am going to do next either. For now, the money in poker is great, and I didn't like engineering. I am grateful that I have the opportunity to sit back and figure it out on my own and not be forced into humping a job I hate for years just to pay the bills. (end rant about myself that you have heard before )

Cliffs notes:

-Apply to law school to keep options open.
-Take the next year to focus on figuring out what you want.
-Make money over that year.
-Don't worry so much, you have time to figure this out. Just make sure you put time into it (which you obviously are)

Jason

do not play poker for a living long term, it is clear you have aspirations greater than that. you are smart and affluent enough to do whatever you want within reason (probably going to be hard to suddenly become an olympic athlete however).

consider what you want to do carefully purely from a fulfillment perspective; do not consider the financial side.

if you want to do something that only makes you a small amount of money, it is a good idea to play as much poker as possible in the next year or two so you can write poetry for 15k a year but still own your own house and car.

presumably whatever you want has a salary that is reasonable; if this is the case, and you think you will find some fulfillment in that profession, you are just wasting your time playing more poker, as you won't want for money in an extreme way at any point in the future (excess will just be for frivolities).

if all of this sounds bad, i would consider just going and travelling in a non-poker environment for a while, maybe saving a bit by playing occasionally online, and actually enjoying life rather than micromanaging your future. like PBJaxx has said, people change over the course of a year; especially once they have left college / moved out / whatever. it's not always necessary to 'get ahead' and life is not a game to be solved with formulae, something i need to remind myself constantly...

do not go to law school, ur throwing away 3 years of ur life studying, forget playing on the side, there's no time if u wanna do very well in school. You then throw away another 5 years working ridiculous hours for not enough money(in poker terms). Of u could do whatever the hell u want for the rest of ur life and make tons of money playing poker.

why is everyone so down on playing poker long term? i'd be absolutely ecstatic if im still playing in 20 years. if you are grinding 8-10 hours a day then i guess it looks more like a normal job. But you can avg 500 an hour u play a couple hours a day and cruise

i also have gotten by in a good school without working, which makes me think law school would be terrible for me since i have no work ethic

same for you, right?

What area of law would you want to enter? Does any aspect of the law truly interest you, or would you be doing it just because it's a respectable profession? This is pretty important.

If you're passionate about a certain aspect of the law, like being an ACLU lawyer or criminal defense attorney, then do it. If you don't really know, I would go with the day trader track.

nyc,
my personal experiences leads me to believe that playing poker for a living is not fulfilling for many people; spending money provides a moderate kind of happiness but compared to what someone with financial security, motivation and a reasonable amount of intelligence can achieve it is really just scratching the surface.

although you can partake in other more rewarding pursuits while simultaneously playing poker, many poker players have quite obsessive mindsets, and find it frustrating to be bad at things (or i guess i should say 'not to be very good at things', as everyone hates being bad at things); this is one of the qualities that has lead to their success at poker. it is very hard to do many different things well at the same time, and so giving up poker at some point in your life makes sense if you feel like you could do something else.

once again, if you really find poker mentally fulfilling, or find that a life well lived has more to do with friends, family, enjoying a nice glass of wine and working 20 hours a week (sounds pretty good when i write it), poker makes a lot of sense; personally i have found that the less poker i play and the more i do things i find challenging, the happier i get.

it seems that the way forward for me is to get obsessed with poker a couple months a year and completely ignore it for the rest though, so i guess that is playing for a living.

i really hate posting on 2+2 about this sort of thing, i don't know why i do it; i have a habit of overanalyzing life despite knowing that this robs it of some of its joy.

i'm all about making a whole bunch and being able to do something like coach a sport or get some other kind of hobby that either pays a little or nothing, but keeps me motivated and goal-oriented or something.

honestly though, i think that just having lots of money and getting into different kinds of physical activity would do it for me.

idk man, idk what we can tell you about your situation exactly that you dont' know already.

as you can tell, me and bbj def don't want to do anything resembling 'work', helli just can't take someone seriously trying to boss me around. in that regard, i could do soemthing like open my own busienss or w/e i guess. if it's your thing to listen to people or to have a goal or to be competitive with a work environment (where a lot of people ge most of their social interaction as well), then go for it.

btw from the little amount i know about you, you would be 100x better served working hard in a trading firm compared to a law firm unless you were EXTREMELY into the law.

on the money magicnit

i really love playing poker and I even find it relaxing at certain times. on this aspect its tough for me to relate to people who see it as a grind and don't enjoy it, which is a surprising number of high stakes players

I feel the same way. I've never understood this prejudice against poker for a living.

If it's doubts about the individuals earning capacity in poker that's one thing, but assuming he can make a good living and still insisting he would be better off in some 9-5 (or 8-10) job is extremely narrow-minded.

Most real world jobs are unpleasant, and most people spend the majority of their life yearning for retirement. To force yourself to be one of these people seems perverse to me.

There are problems with poker as a career, but most of them are the problems of life itself, when life is stripped of routine and obligation. See that thread about Raptor's blog for more on this.

Anyway as to the specific OP, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO GO INTO LAW REGRET IT. I don't have a citation for this but I'm pretty sure it's true.

And even worse, it's the people with the "best" jobs in law that hate their jobs the most. (As in the highest-paid 60 hour week working BIGLAW associates.)

I found law school very interesting, and was very good at it, but I was pretty sure I would be miserable as a lawyer so I got out as soon as I knew I could make more money in poker.

Also the money is not even good in law, by poker standards. If you have the talent and the willingness to devote your life to it you can do well by becoming a partner in a major firm... or if you're really really lucky and good you can make huge $ in litigation. For everyone else the money is not that impressive.

Finance I don't know about firsthand. I'm sure it makes more sense than poker, but if your level of greed and ambition are not that high you're probably better off just doing poker.

micro,
it'd be insane to go into a job you hated if you play poker for a living at a high level currently. the point is gman has the option to do basically whatever he wants within reason, could take off 3-4 years off his life to become an expert in that field, and then reap all the benefits that poker provides while doing a job that truly satisfies him.

Note: I am too drunk right now to make a meaningful post, but this thread is getting pretty good IMO.

A lot of what majicninja wrote struck a chord with me.

First off:

This is exactly where I am right now. While I think entrepreneurship or music are more up my alley than poetry , I understand what he is saying. After several years "as a young professional," I realized that I really just want the freedom to do whatever I want. I don't want to sit and watch TV and golf all day, but I really don't want to be trapped in a job in order to pay the bills.

While this is completely unrelated to the thread, it really hits at home for me. This has been a problem for me for a long time. I may be different than many poker players, but I tend to be a "jack of all trades, but a master of none." To be honest, I am generally very good at whatever I do, but never one of the best (bragging I guess, but w/e, not the point). I have a terrible tendency of spreading myself too thin. This would be okay if I could accept being 2nd or 3rd best at things (among the people I know). It is nearly impossible to be one of the best at many things, and I really think that my desire to do many things very well makes me unhappy as I always feel like I am falling just short in all aspects of life.

I know that this was all pretty irellevent, but you and I think in similar ways, so there may be some substance in here that you can think about moving forward.

Finally:

100% agree with this, and I know you fairly well.

pbjaxx,
i've pondered this a bit in the past and i've come to realise that

a) a lot of wanting to be 'the best' at things is purely ego driven, i should stop and just continue on my own personal path; this is really easy to forget

b) that most the people who have become extremely good at things have had reasons beyond their own driving passions; a lot of people that you probably admire, say in the entrepreneurial or music areas, such as richard branson or jimmy hendrix didn't really have a whole lot of choices; they could work in a crappy job, or they could succeed at something they liked doing; when your 3rd option is to smoke pot and eat cookies and play a little internet poker on the side, it's easy to get distracted from where your real interests in life lie... i'd probably be meeting more pseudo-intellectuals if i lived in a share-house because i was broke, and i'd probably play the piano more if i couldn't afford a guitar as well as a piano.

unfortunately one of the problems with having unlimited freedom and financial security is that the only reason to succeed at anything is because of your own passions for it; and as powerful as these can be, it's easy to get waylaid by a more moderate life where you have a few hobbies, travel sometimes, have a good relationship, etc.

this is something i struggle with continuously; i will play music for 24/7 for ages, get super motivated, feel like i'm improving really fast, hey, maybe i could actually make enough to live off doing this! then one day i'll wake up and i won't play and i'll go rock climbing instead and be like 'hey this is awesome' and then i'll be like 'hey lets fly to canada to go snowboarding this christmas that was really fun last year' and then i won't play music for 2 months and i'll wonder why i wasted so much time playing 3-8 hours a day in the past if i'm not really that committed after all and i'll see my dreams slipping away because of my lack of single-mindedness but i won't have the objectivity to stop myself and then i'm 35 and i'm average at a bunch of things wondering about where i made the wrong turn because i knew from the start that the more i improved at something, the more freedom i had to explore myself through the context of of that something, and the more fulfilled i became as a human being...

it's a pity we don't have tyler durden pointing a gun at our heads and telling us that if we're not on our way to becoming a 'whateveryouwanttobecome' within a year he will shoot us, but whatever. i still find that i enjoy most my pastimes a lot and i've come to realise that the idea of the 'idiot savant' artist or businessman or porn star is something that i've romanticized, probably because like most people, deep-down i guess i like the idea of being 'special' or 'different' to 'normal' people. 'oh i'm so misunderstood but you'd understand me in a second if you heard me play autumn leaves with the oboe and then blew me in the car park1!!'.

for now i am just trying to let life unfold more and enjoy the ride, because it's so easy to get very neurotic / sleepless thinking about this sort of thing.

i do like cookies

Very good post, MagicNinja. Of course, I understand and agree with a lot of what your saying there, yet I have not fully accepted (and maybe never will) that mindset. Regardless of that, I do think I would be happier if I were less of an overachiever in life. That complaining aside, I am pretty damn happy most of the time and truly appreciate what I have.

I also agree that a lot of that mentality is ego driven. While it is not what I strive for, I do have a pretty ****ing big ego. At least I'm self-aware (and narcissistic, I guess). That is also something I am actively working on.

Most importantly, though, you rock for throwing a fight club reference in your post. And of course, I do like cookies as well.

Hey guys, I'm not sober right now so its not worth responding to all this tonight. But I just wanted to say thanks a lot for the input so far and I'll follow up in the morning.