thought Taylor made some good points about cash game players in tournaments and other things here: http://blogs.cardrunners.com/taylor/...-bad-luck-rant

Assuming you guys put some cash players into the ME, maybe this should have been written a bit earlier!

of course.

But even when considering that, pretty much any winning player at 2-4 and above is +ev in the main event

i actually find that what taylor is describing about cash game players is way more true of the tourney players and how they play preflop. or he is just talking to some bad cash players. ya i folded bottom set too but had to pay the guy $100 to get him to show me his flush. i'd take the 10 best 25/50 players over the 10 best tourney all day in any tournament and its not even close in the main event cause of how deep the structure is

o and i love the irony of taylor trying to get people not to talk about dead money cause then those players will want to try and get better

+11

loltaylorcabyworryingaboutpeoplegettingbetterament s

Any tournament? That is obviously silly and I'd certainly take 10 best cash players over 10 best tourney players in a WPT or any RELATIVELY deep structure but there is probably no way the 10 best cash players have a higher ROI in like a preliminary event or regular online tourney.

I'd like to hear your argument why they'd be better though.

Oh /edit to say that I don't think tournament players have any "special skills" or anything but there are certainly differences in theory that you can't make up or figure out the math as you're scratching your balls at the table.

I would not.

when i posted it i meant in something like a WPT and i guess i wouldn't argue if u said the tourney guys would be better in a prelim or regular online tourney but everytime i play with one of these online superstars in a live tourney they make the most boneheaded plays on shortstacks where they are supposed to have the edge. like wacokidd shoving 94 suited utg with 12 BBs at wpt champ last year

note: just busted out of main event.

you're an idiot. the point of the blog was not about educating fish, it was about i'm sick and tired of seeing internet poker players act like they are too cool for school at every live tournament they play. "oh blah blah blah, this guy is horrible at poker --- he limped XYZ hand, omg standard i just stuck it in for 100 bb's with AK against luckbox idiot who happened to have AA that time -- standard why don i run bad?, how BORING is live poker??? i just can't take it, but there's sooooo many bad player's here i can't pass up this kind of value. hehehe bluffed off another stack, can anyone fold in a tournament??? not these idiots."

it's just so annoying to see it time and time again, you play poker on the internet for a living, you aren't that sweet, do your job and shut the **** up every once in awhile.

sorry for the rant but also, christ, give it up with "taylor oh you educated the fish don't you realize it's hypocritical to say anything about poker players not acting like fools and hurting the game?" do you think i don't realize this oh so obvious bit of irony? do you hear me complaining about training sites, books, educational materials, coaching, ghosting, anything like that?

keep in mind that the true fish NEVER buys a book, joins cardrunners, does any of that stuff. fish look at poker as a game of FUN. they want to enjoy themselves out there, not hear about the price the pot was laying or about how you play 16 tables online. the last thing you want is to have the rich guys who fly out here to dust off 10k or more each year start to think "man, it really isn't that fun to sit around a table with a bunch of 21 year olds with ipods talking about HUDs and online poker all day long."

peace and sorry in advance for any feelings that were hurt. love you all love your show.

also i pick 10 MTT guys you pick 10 cash game guys for next years ME let me know. i'll do it for a pretty good amount of $.

will the gods really let elky win this ?

I don't really have an opinion either way, but I fail to see how this would prove anything.

i don't think tc is saying it would prove anything in the slightest, just that he thinks it would be a +ev bet for him to book

Yeah I should also mention that no live tourney is ever very deep toward the end (including WPTs) and usually have like 30BB average stacks which you cash donks have no idea how to play.

And this isn't meant to be NYCBALLER **** TALK, but a lot of "MTT superstars" aren't all that competent.

it doesnt prove anything, he proposed it and i said i'd do it. it won't happen so it doesn't matter. anyway goodnight ugh

www.livejournal.com

But really you sound like you need a rub and tug or something homey.

truer words have never been spoken, agree 110%.

i'd like to say im not in the cardrunners is bad for poker camp. i love it and think its great because it only educates people to a certain extent and will never teach them to beat 10/20+ and gets more people grinding out money at mid stakes who then take shots at higher stakes which means more money for me.

but when you specifically say that talking down to the fish "will make them want to get better" instead of something like "chase them away from poker" it really is hypocritical. but i realize that i'm just being too literal and ur point was not about them getting better, i agree with everything u posted here

it wouldn't prove anything, but whoever was right would get to make a pretty good bet. depending on who exactly qualifies for each category, there's a really good chance i'll take you up on this.

i think the best cash donks (at tournament poker) play 30BB stacks better than nearly every tournament specialist. the majority, however, seem happy to take any possibly slightly +EV opportunity to jam all the money in and hope the other guy folds.

best part of the clip imo

flawless what's the story behind "secret account" joke or scandal in the making?

Taylor, first of all I read your blog and I'd like to preface what I'm going to get to by saying I completely agree with you and was nodding my head in agreement with everything you were writing concerning young online mediocre players thinking they rule the fish at the live pokers, etc. while I read it.

I do find it pretty funny that you say the real fish will never try to get better at poker though. There's over 6,000 people in the main event this year, I consider at least half of them to be "real fish" let alone all the other "real fish" in all the other events. There's a reason why cardrunners is one of the biggest sponsors (I think? based on the name being advertised everywhere I go/impossible to miss) of the wsop(the fishiest/softest series of tournaments of the year obv). I would only have to assume cardrunners is trying to appeal to the "real fish". Even if they aren't particularly interested at getting better, just from sheer curiosity of the huge advertising campaign, a lot of people are probably going to be checking out your site even if they weren't intending on signing up in the first place, they may end up doing so (fortunately for you). If you want to say that you're not trying to appeal to the "real fish" then maybe you're not, but your business is probably exceeding expectations due to you not realizing lots of "real fish" try to get better at poker. There is no doubt/no question at all that some very very big fish have tried to become more proficient at poker. I've seen examples of this stemming from the guys in the private game I had back home in FL. Two particular players in that game, one who owns a ferrari and is a market maker, and another who sold out his video rental business to blockbuster, have both called me in the past week multiple times asking for hand advice from some wsop events. They call me on average at least a couple times a month as well. This is only one example, but there are some other occurrences I am aware of where other very big "real fish" have tried to begin getting better/excelling at poker and if you don't believe me then you're just naive or unaware of their actions. I would place a very large amount of money that a lot of these guys have signed up to training sites(probably cardrunners). Poker isn't all about just drinking a beer and shooting the **** with the boys, although recreational poker is about that too. Even the recreational players want to win...most people classified as real fish have income to supplement their poker hobby, and usually if they make money themselves, they have to have some sort of competitive drive in order to "win" $$$ elsewhere (business, etc). They think winning at poker is so awesome and want to win too, not just get drunk and dust their $$$ off(not exclusively every one of them, but a very large %...>50%? ). I am in agreement with BBJ that your site doesn't teach people to really beat 10/20+ necessarily and I'm not even talking about being anti-training sites etc because I've obv been affiliated with them before, but I just thought it was pretty absurd you're unaware that your site does, indeed, teach "real fish".

obviously marketing at the WSOP is targeting recreational players because they're trying to tap an untapped market.

so many words.
for something so simple.

nycballer, how much does it hurt to realize elky is better at tournaments then you. But seriously, its not just Cash game players that fall in this trap of zomg lol live poker, everyone sucks, etc.... There are tons of mediocre tourney players who are winners online, but might not be huge winners live, why? b/c its a different game, stacking off with AK for 200bbs (as taylor pointed out) might be "standard" in an online setting, but its almost inherently bad v a live player. Its about adjusting etc. I beat myself up over my bustout hand (big bluff) on day 1 in the WSOP ME, b/c it was just ****ing stupid and not worth it. Good players edges are so huge in the ME, that running a huge bluff is almost never worth it...

wait. seriously. i have been sick for 3 days. haven't slept in 72 hours. can't sleep. have a cough. is this influenza? **** **** ****