Just made a bet with a friend prior to opening this thread that there would be at least one post by NoahSD. I guess I lose

This

Although the technical meaning of vouch may mean your held responsible, not everyone is smart enough to know that, and the word is thrown around by others clearly not intending that as the meaning. Since there is clearly a grey area with the word (even if the literal definition isn't so grey), it's up to the reader to investigate

I agree in a perfect world, "vouch"=responsible and reference="just know the guy is reputable", but not everyone is going to read this thread or know what the words mean

unfortunately this isn't this clear for a lot of ppl on 2p2.
there are loooooots of ppl saying they vouched but weren't responsible. kind of a little miracle some sort of drama hasn't happened yet imo

.... i really think that a clear definition should be stickied/advertised in some way

This.

It's very important to clarify the transactions you are making before you make them in an explicit manner with all parties concerned.

You totally lose.

You would've had a sick sweat if you guys had a camera set up in my apartment (which I highly recommend you do for your next bet, btw). I had a long ass post typed out in this thread, and right before I posted it, I thought "Ehh.. this is more of a blog post."

idk, u did post, could angle that bet imo

Nah. Someone linked to something that I created. I hadn't posted.

obv was "at the time of reading"

obviously this

noah i think ur way off btw. vouching system is awesome when done very well, and should happen more often in other walks of life. the issue is when people start throwing around vouches without thinking them thru (which if they dont uphold is the same as stealing imo). there arent as many awkard spots as u think, and i very very rarely vouch for people (n if i do theres a limit usually).

So why not just say "I will give you free insurance on this guy up to $x" and avoid confusion ?

Vouching might be the most -ev thing you can do.

Not necessarily. Maybe one day you'll need someone to vouch for you, that's where the value is.

And +1 to Ike's post, pretty much what I said on the first page (in b4 you're doing it wrong)

Had this discussion in the staking forum I think last year during the wsop. The consensus seemed to be that:

1. Vouch means what people have said that you are responsible for debt if guy doesn't pay.
2. Too many people say vouch and don't mean it, so don't take "I vouch for this guy" to mean what vouch actually means unless you've clarified with them.
3. Just be careful with your words and say what you mean.

I've had many people ask me to vouch for them and I've always refused to use the word. I've detailed relationships I've had or transactions I've done or whatever. One question if someone says "I vouch that this guy is very trustworthy and good at poker" (a lot of staking "vouches" look like that) and the guy rolls a stake is the guy supposed to be on the hook for it with that phrasing? Obviously if he had just posted "I vouch for this guy" he would but it's my understanding he would not be given how that's phrased. Not really sure though.

Yes, I agree with you. I mean lets say I was transferring any money to a poker player as a stake or loan, and person A said I vouch for them. I'd ALWAYS ask so that does mean you guarantee that loan?

Also, I gotta say I would never personally guarantee any loan to.. really, anyone. Including banks, etc.

But if we are defining what I vouch for "person A" specific to the poker community, it stands to reason that that person is willing to assume the debt. Otherwise, why use that terminology?

pretty much ya, lol noahs blog is a bit absurd.

I've never used the word vouch to mean that. If that were actually the case, why aren't people furious at all of the people who vouched for someone who went on to scam others?

Agreed.

use common sense, don't simply take what people say for you want to hear and you'll be fine. If someone says he vouches - why not confirm with him, how far he thinks his responsibility goes?

this and only this.

like when ur playing in a well known casino and the plyr in charge of the game says hell cover u if u loan the live one money and the live one doesnt pay u back. that was 2007. oops. lol poker world.

I didn't realize the distinction about a character reference until zima got pissed when i typed in a thread selling action a few years ago that he would 'vouch' for my character when i meant it as a character reference. I am pretty sure many others are as uninformed as me and there is really no way to inform them, so how can we have someone on the hook unless they explicitly state "I vouch for them financially if anything should happen?" Just using the word 'vouch' doesn't seem good enough when its clearly going to lead to a grey area (i.e. someone claiming they don't know what the meaning of the word is, the other saying they should have known not to vouch and they are financially responsible).

lol wut? Poker terminology got correctly disseminated throughout the known universe pretty rapidly.

And there's this thing called Teh Interwebz, which I hear kids today are familiar with.

You are completely overrating the number of players that pay attention to 2p2/how many deals are done live with people who don't give a **** about the internet and use the word "oh yea, he's a good guy i'd vouch for him" without knowing wtf they are saying. All it takes is one time for a person to say this without meaning vouching financially for it to be stupid to refer to it that way.

really ? afaic, there's that disclaimer thing when you open xfrers/sport betting/.... threads.

as i said in OP, (apparently no one heard so i'll bold it) :

IMO no one, except some of the more meticulous grammar versed ppl (seems to me there are a very few of them hanging out there anyway (lol), should care whether the 'true" meaning of the word is respected or not. this debate is pointless, endless and irrelevant to the real problem.

the only important thing is to have someone to make a rule about that, and put it in the disclaimer.

whatever he choses, that will get rid of potential future problems.

obv i can take care of myself and make sure everything is clear when i make deals.

truth is, i made this thread because i'm somehow tired of hearing about scandals/scams/poker sites ****/others.....

i'm done posting ITT for now, but will be bumping this thread by quoting this very post every month or so. sadly, it's just the best "give back to the commmunity" thing i can think of.

drunk post ftw

Well not every transaction occurs officially on 2p2, and I have had a lot of aim conversations/real life conversations where basically this occurs:

"hey xxxxx is selling pieces, is he trustworthy?"
"Yea I would def vouch for him" or "yea I would def vouch for his integrity"

In both cases, I understood that he wasn't 'vouching' for the person financially but was acting as a 'character reference.' The second one is much less ambiguous than the second, but still has the word 'vouch' in it.

Just saying I think a lot of people just use the term and don't really understand fully what the 'standard' is.

To me, vouch has a colloquial definition something like "he's of good character" and a more poker specific definition like "he's of such good character that I'll cover it if he scams you because I can't imagine that ever happening." I'd apply the second to true die-hard gamble-for-a-living gamblers talking among each other. The reality is, that this isn't often the context in which its said however and consequently it must usually be interpreted like the former.