ya this is pretty much correct for the 10/20 commerce game.
however its not a good fold vs you for the very reason that you know all this and you also know enough to know its not necessary or profitable to get super tricky with a big hand, so its very unlikely that YOU or any other good player would play a big hand this way.
its a spot where you clearly gave up on the hand and then on the turn realized correctly what was going on and thought you could take the pot away (which would prolly work vs most of the normal 10/20 players in that game) you just happened to run into someone who thought on the same level you did.

pretty much every person who said easy fold in hand 1 is a much better NL player then i am, however they don't have the context that i do for thinking about this specific hand.

i think people incorrectly generally assume that the hands posted are played in tough games between tough opponents and that skews the analysis.
in a tough game you often have to get tricky etc, however in the commerce 10/20 there is just no reason to get into a levelling war so most people assumed no good player would bluff in such a spot.

all that said i don't think this hand indicates that you are a bad player at all, but don't be so defensive about advocating this play from a theoretical point of view. should just be like "what ya'll don't realize is that the vast majority of commerce players don't think about ranges they just play according to their absolute hand strength and so this bluff is profitable in these games as its clear the OP never has better then 1pr".

much in the same way that if you posted hand 1 from your POV everyone would have said, bad bluff what are you trying to rep etc, will only work if villian doesn't think on that level, so there is no point asking about it on here as its entirely read dependent.

but vanessa is 100% correct that the reason most of the good players said to fold is because its one of those spots where it generally makes zero sense to bluff, they didn't say fold cuz it was such a great bluff.

Poker is so easy when you know the cards.

Lower stakes poster here, but snap call one and fold river the first time in hand 2. This is too easy.

Oh an limon lol you obviously bluff bad!!

Swear I've never read a thread about a "good bluff" after results have been given.

Ive heard this a couple times and it wasnt like i turned a 15 out draw and was check folding. As soon as the turn hit I planned on winning the pot, it was just a matter of how. bet 3 betting woulda been solid but I cant plan on getting raised light because its hard for me to rep that "gutless" bet the woman did since people generally know i protect my babies. LA would just flatted me if i lead. so check raise is the play but then things got even better (in my mind) check re-raise is a cream dream, even more dead money for me to collect.

you see I get the benefit of 3 things:

1. the "standard" turn 3 bet range which is...the nuts. (as discussed it does exist)
2. My generally perceived 3 bet range (everyone whos posted in this thread who knows my game 1st hand or has even read my posts closely said FOLD!!...and they were right)
3. My actual range which is only 15+ out draws, 66 and strangely played flopped sets and straights. I never have air here because, as aejones said, 10% one or both of these "gutless" bests ahead of me are actually strangely played big hands and so i need outs to make the semi-bluff correct.

you missed my main point which was, yes if this hand went down in some super tough 25/50+ game i would give you credit for all those hands you want me to believe you could have.

however in a commerce 10/20NL game its absurd to take lines like this with any hand other then 66.
there's enough $ in the pot and enough players to simply start building it up on the flop, and no good player is going to take this line on that flop with a made hand often enough to not be getting a good enough price to pay off with hero's hand.
and thats why its a pretty easy call vs you IMO.

oh wait! theres a 4th thing working for me (and im not thinking this stuff up as I go, i really thought this play was a mortal lock at the time and still do)

4. it might be an easy call 4 you because you play big but even for an above average 10-20 player this is a monster bet in a monster pot which is just going to get bigger. we both know the (unnamed) asian prop w/ small reflective galsses. he folded a 2 pair face up to me in a situation much like this no more than 48 hours before this exact hand.

I mean, dont you play this hand the exact same way?

You can't really have 66 or a straight that often because apparently live players don't raise with those hands preflop, not even in position.

like i said in my final post last night where i said i didn't think this hand meant you played terribly, i don't think this play IN THAT GAME vs the normal 10/20 players is bad, the only reason the bluff was bad was because you ran into someone who thought on the same level as you did.

but the bluff can't be defended on a theoretical level, its a situation where its only good when playing against weak opposition, so basically its a read dependent move, which is fine, but thats how it should be defended rather then faulting the hero for figuring out what you were thinking and calling.

his call is def not bad at all like you make it out to be, cuz he correctly realized what you picked up on and also that it wouldn't make sense in the game you were in to play a big hand that way.

obv you have no way of knowing if hero was thinking on same level or is just a massive calling station etc, but you certainly can't say that calling in his spot is bad.

i think you are arguing 2 diff things.

1) your bluff was not horrible

2) his call was

i agree with the first statement conditionally and not the 2nd.

man there is no such thing as a "live" player. there are just good players and bad players. good players play everywhere. even bobby hoff, who is like 70, plays a lot online. i was just killing Razz at FTP last night!!

LA is right a the brink of who id try this on. hell be happy to hear this: hes a good thinker whos properly rolled and adjusts well to me because ive been brutalizing him for years.

hell be unhappy to hear this: hes a massive calling station if you feed him just a hint of weakness (see also: hand 2)

but still rbk...what do u do w. ackc here? my play is just universally locked in. LA figured it out (i guess) he timebanked twice and was totally lost IMO.

I completely agree with you. But at least from this thread it transpired that in those games people like to limp rather than raise with speculative hands.

I think you are being a little unfair here. I cant argue too much because I did make a horrible call in hand 2 but in hand 1, the way you made the bet, just insta jamming, lead me to believe the nothing you were repping was actually nothing.

raise bigger preflop.
bet the flop.
jam the turn.

but i'm a monkey.

You fire the flop on a super wet Q hi broadway board into 3 players? Seems suicidal but I would like to hear the logic.

nut gut two overs bdnfd baby!

thats a very easy bet on the flop with AKcc

what was your plan when u checked ?

check call, check raise , lol?

[QUOTE=Jacques Demers;21881684]what was your plan when u checked ?

check call, check raise ,

Check. Expecting to fold but will
Evaluate

exactly my point from the start

Talking about the flop. Turn us a different story. Ur probably fuqqing with me but i want to be clear for other readers

It's suicidal

no thats the whole point.

you never flopped a big hand or even a big draw, so the only thing you can reasonably rep on the turn is 66 or a big draw/total air.

given that and the very low probability you have 66 in this spot, i dunno how you maintain calling you down is "horrible".

its pretty transparent.

edit: i assume your not trying to say you can reasonably expect people to figure you were trying to go for a CR on the flop with like top set, cuz check raising the flop in this spot with a big hand is also super terrible.

pretty much the best possible line with a good hand on the flop is to bet.

whaat ??

explain please, cause i might be totally ******ed, but i do think flop is a mandatory bet.

I would like to hear as why betting is not good in this spot???

I'll take a shot. there are 2 limpers who are tight, i limp and am a pretty tag player. Limon raises, all the limpers call. what do these guys have? well it isnt small cards for tight limpers, it isnt big cards because they didnt raise coming in so its middle type cards. Now the flop is a homerun for middle cards, its dripping wet! Not only that but your c-bet can be read as just that, a mandatory c-bet from an aggressive player. You're just getting popped here so often that the c-bet is pretty spewy. Now you might just get looked up and not popped but the parlay of barreling twice just in the hopes you pick this thing up is too big to be profitable IMO.

NEVER is a strong word, considering everytime I play live I 3bet a few times pre in a session, sometimes 4bet, and not always holding AA/KK if I do 4bet. And I do encounter other players doing the same. And this isnt because I also play online, it's just because when the situation demands that a 3bet is better than just flatting I will do it. I'm sure you understand that. And I'm sure you yourself 3bet when you play live. So obv it's false when you say that "you never get 3bet live".

raising all playable hands OTB doesnt improve your manhood. if there are players limping who play horribly postflop and will fold their marginal hands if you raise OTB, then situation demands that for some hands we should limp along and swap the small mistake for their much bigger mistakes postflop. this is very basic and im sure you understood that within months of playing poker so why stand on a pedestal and say "we must raise all playable hands all the time OTB"?? I mean, it doesnt mean you are more balla than limon if you raise OTB 100% of the time you have a hand compared to limon... when I actually am quite sure you live more balla than limon... so theres really no need for you to take shots at him btw.

This was one of the more insulting infomercials I've listened to in a long time. I held out as long as I could...