Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

That's What She Said! A place to discuss female specific issues related to poker and other subjects.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-30-2018, 06:15 PM   #126
mycorrhizae
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 112
Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moon_maiden207 View Post
Hi there,

I am new here and new to poker. I play online from India and in my limited experience, I am always being addressed as dude/bro/man in the forums or in chat boxes while playing. I find it a little weird that the 'go to' assumption for everybody playing or even in this site is that I am a guy!

But in some ways I find it more comforting that they think I am a guy and just go with it. I must admit I do feel a bit intimidated while playing or interacting in the forums because it is so male dominated. Partly because I am very new to the game and also not into social media but I do feel more women playing or commenting in all the groups would make for a more comfortable experience for people like me.

But similar to me I am sure there are other female players online all over the world who just goes along with the assumption that they are male players. There are cognitive biases that are inherent within us and female online players might think being vocal about their gender might bring about those cognitive biases from their opponents and they might change their gameplay. This would primarily occur implicitly of course and not overtly. However I have no data to back this up.

But in regards to brain wiring, several publications (See Autism Research Centre, Cambridge University publications for gender differences in cognitive tasks) have shown that male brains have better pattern recognition abilities and more detailed - oriented attention orientation and autism is an extreme form of this male brain. Female brains are more empathetic at a population level with greater holistic processing. Hence it can be speculated that male brain in general have higher percentage of some traits that naturally attract them to poker.
Of course there are outliers. And it doesn't mean that female brain is not wired to become good at poker but they might use other cognitive domains at a higher degree for eg: greater empathic abilities/putting yourself in others shoes. It can be hypothesized that male brain in general find it easier to navigate the course of becoming a full-time professional poker player.
This is bad science. Most meta-analyses of findings (like the ones you are citing) show an overall lack of statistical significance in any claim about differences between genders (see http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1990-14384-001 and http://psycnet.apa.org/buy/1988-35304-001). There's no legitimate way to control for stereotype threat. Even if you were to take the findings you cite as statistically significant and replicable (which they aren't), the differences certainly aren't acute enough to explain the performance gap, let alone the 96/4 split in representation overall.
mycorrhizae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2018, 06:23 PM   #127
mycorrhizae
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 112
Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker Clif View Post
FWIW there are some weird cases of men dominating the top echelon of certain endeavors even though most of the participants are women. For example, a lot of the flute players in major US orchestras are men, even though women dominate the feeder system (US high school bands.) I haven't seen a good explanation for this.
Bridge would be the closest analogy (majority women players, 0 women in the top 100). I think the most logical explanation for lack of representation at the top is sociological. Developing people are conditioned to behave based on their assigned gender roles (men are traditionally rewarded for aggressive and competitive behavior, while women are traditionally chastised for aggressive and competitive behavior). These norms are enforced by both the ingroups (women -> women) and outgroups (men -> women), as well as by societal structures at large (gender segregation in competition).

As for why there are so few women in poker overall, that's due to the above as well as social norms and the compounding affects when gender dictates who plays what, and who's invited. You see boys at like 10yo who are playing 5 card draw telling a girl who's interested "this is a game for boys, you're not invited", directly mirroring norms they learned from media and those around them. Adults who learn to play poker from joining their friends' "Boy's Night". These things all compound, and I know for a fact that if you go to almost any table in the country as a woman, you're going to be reminded in one way or another of your gender, when it's implicit and accepted that men are welcome.

Last edited by mycorrhizae; 08-30-2018 at 06:34 PM.
mycorrhizae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2018, 05:55 PM   #128
moon_maiden207
newbie
 
moon_maiden207's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 30
Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mycorrhizae View Post
This is bad science. Most meta-analyses of findings (like the ones you are citing) show an overall lack of statistical significance in any claim about differences between genders (see http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1990-14384-001 and http://psycnet.apa.org/buy/1988-35304-001). There's no legitimate way to control for stereotype threat. Even if you were to take the findings you cite as statistically significant and replicable (which they aren't), the differences certainly aren't acute enough to explain the performance gap, let alone the 96/4 split in representation overall.
Your citations are close to 20 years old!! I will give a detailed analysis later. Read this for a more up to date analysis - https://carlsonschool.umn.edu/sites/...%20Paper_0.pdf

Btw may I know what is your background - have you done gender differnces research?
moon_maiden207 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2018, 05:57 PM   #129
moon_maiden207
newbie
 
moon_maiden207's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 30
Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mycorrhizae View Post
This is bad science. Most meta-analyses of findings (like the ones you are citing) show an overall lack of statistical significance in any claim about differences between genders (see http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1990-14384-001 and http://psycnet.apa.org/buy/1988-35304-001). There's no legitimate way to control for stereotype threat. Even if you were to take the findings you cite as statistically significant and replicable (which they aren't), the differences certainly aren't acute enough to explain the performance gap, let alone the 96/4 split in representation overall.
Please identify the citations I quote which you claim to be 'not statistically significant and not replicable'. Please give specific paper references for this.
moon_maiden207 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2018, 06:11 PM   #131
moon_maiden207
newbie
 
moon_maiden207's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 30
Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mycorrhizae View Post
Bridge would be the closest analogy (majority women players, 0 women in the top 100). I think the most logical explanation for lack of representation at the top is sociological. Developing people are conditioned to behave based on their assigned gender roles (men are traditionally rewarded for aggressive and competitive behavior, while women are traditionally chastised for aggressive and competitive behavior). These norms are enforced by both the ingroups (women -> women) and outgroups (men -> women), as well as by societal structures at large (gender segregation in competition).

As for why there are so few women in poker overall, that's due to the above as well as social norms and the compounding affects when gender dictates who plays what, and who's invited. You see boys at like 10yo who are playing 5 card draw telling a girl who's interested "this is a game for boys, you're not invited", directly mirroring norms they learned from media and those around them. Adults who learn to play poker from joining their friends' "Boy's Night". These things all compound, and I know for a fact that if you go to almost any table in the country as a woman, you're going to be reminded in one way or another of your gender, when it's implicit and accepted that men are welcome.
Do you have any data to back the claim that this is mostly a social phenomenon and do not have any brain-behaviour relationship. From your statements it appears you have very little idea about the science behind gender differences; let alone commenting on what is good or bad science
moon_maiden207 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2018, 08:32 PM   #132
moon_maiden207
newbie
 
moon_maiden207's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 30
Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

Detailed Response:

This is definitely going to be a TL;DR post. I will say a bit about me that should justify my making this post; I never discuss topics that I don’t have knowledge in. My PhD work was on social cognition in individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder with focus on gender differences in control and ASD population. I used psychophysics and neurophysiological techniques (functional neuroimaging, eye-tracking, and EMG) to study this research domain. I have primarily referenced (in the above posts) published articles by Prof. Simon Baron Cohen, Director of Autism Research Centre at University of Cambridge and a world renowned scientist in the field of gender differences and Autism. He is a very approachable scientist and if any of you have specific questions regarding his research work, you can drop him an email. Fun fact: He is the cousin of Sacha Baron Cohen
Let us look at the claim of gender differences in brain-behaviour relationship
1. Playing poker or solving math problems are end behaviour that involves multiple cognitive processing domains. From lower-order visual processing, working memory and executive functions to name a few. These domains are all a function of an individual’s brain interacting simultaneously with internal and external information flow. Hence it is more useful to look at differences in the cognitive domains rather than end behaviour alone and the former can be achieved through various techniques.
The above posted papers as well as various others have now clearly established gender differences in cognitive processing. The ones I have posted are primarily on in systemizing-empathising as that is the one cognitive domain I initially referred to (not mathematical abilities and/or verbal abilities). If any one of you think you can refute the results from these papers please directly contact the corresponding author of the papers. They will be happy to and best-equipped to answer all questions.
It is not useful to look at some 20 year old meta-analysis papers on gender differences in verbal or mathematical abilities to gage the current literature on gender differences in cognitive processing.
Btw neither of the two old papers was quoted by me in the original post. I asked to refer to ARC’s publications on the topic of gender differences in systemizing-empathising processing. I have now given specific references in regards to this topic.

2. Now consider poker – I assume it is established that there is a significant gender difference in poker player population. Assuming this and considering playing poker is a function of different cognitive processes it can be hypothesized that the gender differences in the different cognitive domains involved in playing poker would influence gender split observed within the said population.
To test this hypothesis one needs to identify
• These cognitive domains – lower order domains like systemizing and empathising as well as higher order domains like risk-taking behaviour, executive decision-making, working memory to name a few
• Design experiments to test these domains in control and poker playing population stratified by gender.
Our brain never functions in isolation; it is always and interaction between internal and external cues. So in case of poker as well, environment (social norms included) will have an effect on brain-behaviour relationship; To what degree is it inherently biological and what role does environment have is of course a more complicated question.
This could be studied by specifically studying female poker players; what was inherently different in their biology and/or environment that made them select this profession?
OP posted a question which when considered in depth can prove to be a highly complex study and would prove to be an interesting research topic.
Humble brag: I don’t do ‘bad science’ or talk ‘bad science’. My published papers are in peer-reviewed International journals with above average Impact Factors and my primary and secondary PhD supervisors are power-house researchers in the above mentioned field.
moon_maiden207 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2018, 05:16 PM   #133
Spike621092
stranger
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 9
Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

The thing with online is you just don’t know from a screen name
Spike621092 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2018, 02:27 PM   #134
Primrose6789
journeyman
 
Primrose6789's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 208
Re: why don't more women play ONLINE poker?

You just know it from the womens events. It´s really sad, I use to play those Womens specials on Stars and there are not so many women in those tourneys. Too bad.
Primrose6789 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online