It's almost like the aggressive/competitive nature of a game has nothing to do with verbal abuse and everything to do with the, y'know, nature of the game.

I don't think it has anything to do with the competitive nature, but you surely aren't suggesting that language isn't aggressive.

You're talking about the nature of a game. That's completely divorced from the abusive language of its participants. Like, football and rugby are aggressive because you can force an opponent out of contention. Poker is aggressive because you can force an opponent out of contention. That's the nature (read: inherent characteristic) of the game, not how the participants choose to behave.

If poker players or video gamers stopped using rape flippantly absolutely nothing would change in their lives or their chosen hobbies except for making them approachable to a wider audience, which in poker is inherently a good thing.

I referred several times previously not to simply the inherent nature of the game, but to the environment in which it is played.

And if the language permissible (even tacitly, as it's outlawed in amateur football but rarely enforced) in the game were not conducive to the creation of a certain environment then this wouldn't be a topic of discussion.

The idea that I think it's okay to just throw out threats across the poker table is not something I think can be levelled at me. I certainly haven't intended to give that impression.

So to so much as use the term rape is sickening to you, but to mention that men face far higher levels of assault is a big joke.

I'm not interested then.

a) this is a forum designed to discuss women's issues. we're not here to talk about why boys have it bad or why we should be sympathetic to where they're coming from. we know where you're coming from. male experience has dominated discourse and been the "standard" POV since the beginning of time. again: THIS FORUM WAS CREATED SPECIFICALLY TO DISCUSS WOMEN'S ISSUES. nobody cares if you're butthurt because we aren't showering your straight hetero male perspective with praise.

b) men commit more violent crimes than women. (overwhelmingly so.)

c) 1 in 4 women experience sexual violence in their lifetime.

d) i'd love to see some statistics that "men face higher levels of assault than women" because i looked pretty damn hard and cannot find a single report to validate this claim.

e) i turned my response into a joke because your convoluted explanation about men and aggression and sports is (1) off-topic and (2) is decidedly NOT "consistent with many feminist viewpoints." submitting examples about your football game as an explanation for describing why men "do what they do" is not helpful. we already KNOW that men use violent aggressive language in competitions. your example of what happens when you and your buddies play football contributes exactly zero to our discussion.

my overarching point (which i have enunciated quite clearly several times) is that using the word "rape" is wrong and offensive and its use should be discouraged whenever it is uttered at a poker table. lots of times men do not know how damaging using this word is, and it is within our rights to express our dissatisfaction. all this other mumbo-jumbo you're spouting (which makes little to no sense, btw) is just a description of current attitudes and provides nothing prescriptive or means to change.

there, is that a better answer for you? (personally i thought the gifs were much more effective and succinct, but to each their own.)

Ok, toodle-pip.

Top post redhat_jane, apologies for my part in the derail

I consider myself pretty close to an expert in being a female learning to adapt in male dominated environments. I was a tomboy growing up (still am), I was often the only girl playing on sports teams with all guys, then I became a police officer and joined the military. I like guys. I like male dominated environments.

There's a difference between learning to be accepted into a male environment and allowing yourself to be sexually harassed, and all decent guys know where that line is.

Have I made jokes with male friends that might make other women cringe? Sure, because they were my friends, and because I'm really incredibly hard to insult or offend. Once you establish a relationship with someone and learn what the others limits are, you can say all sorts of things that might otherwise be considered offensive, but aren't WITHIN THE CONTEST OF THE RELATIONSHIP.

There's a world of difference between friends exchanging bawdy jokes/humor and some stranger at the poker table saying the exact same thing. There's sometimes that one guy who is just an asshat, or is overly familiar with strangers, or maybe actually has some sort of problem with women (or gays, or minorities, or whatever). And anyone who encounters that type of person, man or woman, will hopefully speak up and tell that person the truth - you're an idiot/bigot/asshat, shut up and stop saying offensive ****.

It doesn't matter if that same comment with a friend would instead garner a laugh and a joke in return. It doesn't mean that I'm thin skinned, or looking to be a victim, or any other "blame the victim" terminology you want to throw around. It means that context matters, and that NO ONE, man woman gay straight black white whatever, deserves to be treated with disrespect. And the fact that it's a "male dominated environment" and I happen to have the wrong set of genitalia doesn't make that any less true.

I guess there's one final caveat - it's generally not that hard to tell, IMO, if someone is just trying to be funny and is overly familiar in a way that makes you uncomfortable, and when someone is genuinely an *******. The way you confront/deal with the two different breeds may be somewhat different.

OP, you lost me at "where do you GUYS draw the line...." I thought you were addressing MEN not women with this question. Why not, "where do you ladies draw the line...."

As a lady, that is one of my pet peeves, being addressed as YOU GUYS in so many situations. Unfortunately the english language has no good plural for YOU, and You is singular and plural. But most people are uncomfortable using it as a plural and resort to you guys, or yall. Many a waiter/waitress have been rebuked by me for asking "what can I get you guys?"

Anyways, as a voluptuous outgoing lady, if i sit down at a table full of men I am fully prepared for them to push my boundaries with their chatter. Frankly I'm happy they're thinking about my assets instead of the hand or the game, as that allows me an advantage. A 'Mr. Expert' hand analysis is way more annoying to me than a sexist barb.

I chose to put myself in this environment and if it gets out of hand, the music goes on to drown them out. I never condone a table change if someone is being annoying, that's part of the game. If they are truly out of line then the floor should penalize THEM with a time out, not move the offended player.

Sounds like I'm from a similar background as SGT RJ, military, skydiving, poker playing, tons of male-dominated environments, etc. And I 100% agree with her.

As for language...there's only one thing that offends me ever, and it isn't even sexist. It's when someone uses the term Jew to describe someone who is apparently tight with their money, or they got "Jewed" by someone. I'm not even Jewish, but the amount I hear this used makes me think it is still somewhat acceptable, and the insidious, casual bigotry it shows is way more offensive to me than blatantly racist or sexist talk/jokes. I hear it and I "burn with the rage of 100 fiery suns" (lol, I love that, SGT, I'm stealing it).

It seems everyone has their "trigger", as it were. For me, nothing I've heard at the poker table comes close to the crap I heard in the military, But I can respect others' views, too. Usually I don't even have to call people out, some guy at the table will do that. Though to be honest, I actually get slightly offended when people curse then apologize to me. I swear like a sailor, and it kind of bugs me that guys still think women can't handle that.

To the Batmobile ladies!

Using rape at the poker table - good or bad?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...nting-1357923/

Last page mostly, up until that point it was just a people saying "WTF at him saying face raped" and others saying "LOL at you, face raping is just slang".

Haven't clicked it but summary:

No-one talks about it
Someone notices it and condemns it
Bunch of white, middle-class men tell them he can say what he likes/it doesn't matter/you're being over-sensitive
No-one learns anything
I die a little more inside

I had someone else claiming to be a female say I was being over sensitive and a feminist nazi (which, really, LOL to anyone that knows me). Really ditto the over sensitive part.

When logic or understanding get you know where, try attacks and name calling and see if that makes the other person back down. Hachaha!

Never underestimate the ability of the human mind to internalise abuse against it

Mindboggeling. Ask him how he would like if some talked to his mother like that. According rape comment i would answer "its probable the only way for you to get some action, right?" But I assume a women wouldn't answer anything like that?

Last night a guy I've been at the table with a few times said to another player "don't be vaginal". So I said "you try pushing an 8 lb baby out of your wiggly parts and then we will talk about who has the stronger privates -- so I assume either you didn't want him to be strong or you just wanted to offend me?"

He thought about it second and and sighed. lol

(and yes -- I try to bring a little humor to things with the use of less explicit or crude terms).

The sheer amount of ignorance in that thread by the people arguing against you is staggering.

Sad but standard unfortunately.

And the hits just keep on coming:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=106

Like I don't think most poker is "female nasty" overall, for lack of a better term, but it seems a stretch to go from "women can compete against and defeat men if they are good enough" to "poker is very female friendly" and there is no misogyny in poker.

I honestly don't even know how to respond to this. I feel like he might be from another planet if he really believes this.

What OP mentioned is highly unappropriate behavior I think

I think anything sexist, racist, or that is meant to offend someone should not be said at the poker table

"Haters guns hate" just ignore them

That's easy to say in isolation on the internet but it's not something everyone can do when having to deal with it face-to-face. Either way, it shouldn't be up to the victims to handle it but instead up to the perps to cut it the hell out.

I agree my man something needs to be done.

What needs to happen is better oversight from card room staff (not going to happen, they can't see past the potential immediate bottom-line hit of the perp leaving to see the long-term gain of a more inclusive game) and more community policing (which isn't going to happen if we all keep denying there's a problem/tell victims they should "man up" or that it's "part of the game" or that they should "just ignore it, haters gonna hate").