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Old 02-20-2013, 02:46 PM   #101
Matt Crocker
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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Originally Posted by hankwhite69 View Post
I may have misconstrued my words a bit here.For one thing,I am def the guy that calls out the jerks at a table.To the point where I've been asked to leave a few times at several diff places.I play late night and that's when all the real jerks come out.I prob get diff crowds during my hours of play than most who play during the day or early evening,(casino wise)
All i'm trying to say is that,Its a hard battle to fight.You exchange words with one jerk and otherone spawns the next time.Jerks are jerks and need to be taken with a grain of salt sometimes.
Just understanding that most of these younger guys are just really socially inept around others.
Yeah, perhaps just a miscommunication. The solution to the socially inept jerks is 100% to pull them up on their behaviour.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:12 AM   #102
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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Originally Posted by Matt Crocker View Post
Sadly Planet Gamer has pretty sicknasty internet to facilitate all those 360 NOSCOPE HEADSHOTZZZZZ which means its denizens (hereby referred to as "asshats") are free to be misogynist *******s from thousands of light years away.
The use of rape as a metaphor for taking all someone's chips is much older than that, nor is it anywhere near exclusively used for female players -- see which, Teddy KGB's taunting in Rounders, which came out when internet poker wasn't even a year old.

Please note I make no argument about whether or not it's "worse" when it's directed at female players; I only address your claims regarding the agent and the motivation.

Last edited by Moose; 02-24-2013 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:25 PM   #103
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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The use of rape as a metaphor for taking all someone's chips is much older than that, nor is it anywhere near exclusively used for female players -- see which, Teddy KGB's taunting in Rounders, which came out when internet poker wasn't even a year old.

Please note I make no argument about whether or not it's "worse" when it's directed at female players; I only address your claims regarding the agent and the motivation.
It certainly predates the internet but it's proliferated far further because of it.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:29 PM   #104
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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Originally Posted by SGT RJ View Post
Not really.

Someone saying "I totally crush/own you" is completely different from "I totally rape you" in both tone and implied threat and anyone pretending otherwise because of an old timey definition of a word is deluding themselves.

No one uses rape to mean anything other than a violent sexual assault anymore, whatever the original meaning of the word might have been. Claiming, even in a joking fashion, that anything that happens at the poker table is in anyway similar is offensive to many.

And, as I pointed out before, you have no way of knowing if anyone at the table, male or female, is a sexual assault survivor. Are you familiar with the term "flashback"? Why in the world would you want to risk reminding anyone of what is probably one of the most horrible experiences in their life just so you can make a one off comment when there are many other words that convey the same thing but without those violent sexual overtones?
Spot on.
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:17 PM   #105
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Cool Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

I've been playing in a local poker room in Southern California and often play late, up to 6am. This is definitely a 'working class' type casino- no airs and graces - and some might call it rough. There are the oddballs I love, like the older guy on the 4/8 limit table who stands up and loudly sings a line from a random R&B tune whenever he wins a pot.

But whenever a player has gotten out of line verbally, even a couple of 'f**ks' and not directed at me, the dealers most often call a halt:"tone it down guys, there's a lady at the table" is the usual scold. To which I most often exaggerate batting my eyes and beam a smile, which I think takes any extra tension out of the air - I'm well able to curse a blue streak but appreciate the dealers taking control of that aspect of the table.

I'm fortunate I haven't run up against the 'rape' term much playing live - online I did, of course, as well as 'hope your mother dies of cancer' and that sort of thing. The guys I've heard use it are the same guys who dress to look like what they think a 'baller' looks like - and I think the term is all about image, and an insecure need to look/sound like a real player. And I haven't known what to do beyond shake my head.

I'm a regular listener to a poker podcast where the (very winning) host kept using the term rape, but recently he made a point of saying he was going to use different words in place of 'rape' and I have some hope that this'll pass down the line, though he didn't go into the reasons why he was changing it up.

Since reading this thread, I've been struggling to think of a way to respond to the use of this term as I expand where I play. The response: "There are self-help programs for people with limited social skills like you." just doesn't seem to cut it. And I don't think I'd get away with "Oh, wow, what a concept! Just how often do you trip on your giant dick?" And then in homage to my favorite late night limit player, I've considered quietly singing, "R E S P E C T, find out what it means to me." As you can see, I haven't nailed it yet.

I'm pretty tough, I think any woman who plays poker regularly has to be. I'm also a survivor. As I was typing that sentence out I think I stumbled on a seed for a response. Rage. Not active rage, mind you, but the power of that emotion. The crime committed against me happened many years ago, but as those who've been through trauma would understand, it's on the edge of my awareness every moment, though few know it even happened apart from my closest family, a few friends, and a grand jury in NYC. Oh yeah, and now you lot. But it's been long enough for me to leave most of the vulnerability of it behind and be in a state of feeling some power from a controlled sort of rage - in protection for myself and any other person at risk.

So, at this moment I think I will stand up at the table and say, "Rape is not the right word to use here. It's ignorant. And it brings out my superhero alter-ego. You don't wanna go there." Then maybe exaggeratedly bat my eyes again but with a grim smile on my face. Hopefully the table could then discuss it civilly (as several of us discussed the recent vatican news the other night, all feeling passionately about it including one 80+ man who felt that priests were being wrongly maligned.) Or maybe just the one guy would shut up.
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:38 PM   #106
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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Hypothetical-

Same situation as the rape comment except white player losses flush to black players straight flush.

White player: If 7 of diamonds come, I would own you.

Offensive?
Inappropriate?

Also, does the name of this board offend anyone?
Own in this sense does not signify the property definition of the word. I'm not sure how prevalent "own" as a slang for beat/crush/dominate is outside the internet (I'm old and have no idea what the kids are saying these days), so I'd need that information to put it in context.

If most people nowadays understand that "own" here doesn't refer to property or actual ownership I'd say it's fine. Outside of online gaming culture, rape doesn't mean dominate, it means an unwanted and often violent sexual assault.

And why would the name of 2p2 offend anyone.
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:47 PM   #107
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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And why would the name of 2p2 offend anyone.
It took me a while, but he has to mean "That's what she said."
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:23 PM   #108
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

It isn't about what would offend you. It is what would offend the person you are saying it to.

The name of the forum was suggested by a woman. You'll find most of a participates of this forum are familiar with irony and "get it."
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:02 AM   #109
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

I work in a male-dominated field and am used to being 'one of the guys', so perhaps that's why I am rarely offended at a poker table.

They say nasty, mean things to each other too sometimes, so I don't take it personally or expect special treatment because I'm a girl.
I have seen guys call the floor when they think someone has crossed the line(with them, not me), usually with a threat, but I have yet to feel the need for that myself.

I ignore cursing and dirty jokes, but usually other guys at the table, or the dealer will speak up with a "Hey, there's a lady at the table", I just shrug and say it doesn't bother me or I didn't hear it, even if I did. Usually they stop at that point.
Sometimes, when a dealer warns them, they will look at me and say, "you didn't hear that did you?" and I say "Hear what?" and they laugh and tone it down for the rest of the session.
Male dealers seem more willing to admonish them IME.

Yes, some men try to get me on tilt with comments they think will bother me and they even ramp it up when I don't get ruffled.
The one that seems to be their last resort is implying that I am a lesbian, sometimes subtly, sometimes obviously. I'm not, and will sometimes comment that my husband would disagree, other times I just pretend I didn't get the inference.
Once they realize that it isn't working they give up.

I try to be friendly to everyone and that tends to get most of the table to stick up for me if one guy is being a jerk.

In my experience, if you don't act offended (even if you are) then they leave you alone.

On those occasions where I do think they have crossed the line, I have a look I give them that is very effective.

Which is probably how I would have responded to the rape comment the OP described, or I would have ignored it, depending on how I read his intention.

Regarding the "show us your ass comment", I hope I would have come up with something witty like, "But you're showing yours so well I can't compete."
Or I would have given the dealer 'the look' cueing him to rein them in and just sit down, maybe saying "yeah, that's not gonna happen" or something, and just play.

I probably would not get a table change because I would think they are more likely to underestimate my abilities, so I can get the best revenge - take their monies.

Imagine how much that type of guy hates losing to a girl lol.
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:08 PM   #110
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Ladies, you can defend yourself very well with words. Trust me I'm a guy and nothing wears more on **** than when they get handled and they actually realize it.
Don't be subtle. When someone gets at you inappropriately, get back at them with your highest, sweetest voice, exaggerate completely and smile like you would if you were proud of a kid. Say something like "Awwww, that's sooo cute of you! Which kid tought you that line?"
There are hundreds, thousands of comebacks like this one, just be creative. You can humiliate men with stuff like that, just do it. You can entertain the table this way and people will learn to respect you and not get back at you so quickly.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:05 AM   #111
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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Ladies, you can defend yourself very well with words. Trust me I'm a guy and nothing wears more on **** than when they get handled and they actually realize it.
Don't be subtle. When someone gets at you inappropriately, get back at them with your highest, sweetest voice, exaggerate completely and smile like you would if you were proud of a kid. Say something like "Awwww, that's sooo cute of you! Which kid tought you that line?"
There are hundreds, thousands of comebacks like this one, just be creative. You can humiliate men with stuff like that, just do it. You can entertain the table this way and people will learn to respect you and not get back at you so quickly.
as a man,Im saying do this ^

That would suck
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:10 PM   #112
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

First, I guess I'm too old, so could someone please explain what the title of this forum has to do with adolescent humor? Is it from a movie or something?

As to responding to the rape comment, or other inappropriate comments, I am a big believer in putting it back on the dealer to enforce the rules. That's part of his/her job. I'm sure most rooms have some sort of rule about obscenities/insulting language. So I would suggest looking at the dealer and saying something like "that's not appropriate; please get it under control" or words to that effect.

It takes you out of a direct confrontation with the offender, which IMO is usually a good thing. Because when two players argue, it always seems to escalate, and you may or may not be good at thinking up witty/catchy comebacks on the fly. Plus, you want to frame the problem as getting the poker room to enforce their rules, not whether or not you should be offended by what was said. By putting it on the dealer to control his/her table, then the offender is left with the choices of either stopping, or continuing to argue with the dealer (rather than you) which will then get the floor involved.
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:55 AM   #113
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

its the same line in any situation.
location doesn't excuse stupidity.

if it were me, i would have gone off on them. "something like, i used to be against abortion.."
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:17 AM   #114
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

interesting thread

i'd say dont respond. it's just words. take their chips. then at the end of it, when they're walking out busto, say something smart ass to them. like you just stuck it up their a$$
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:12 PM   #115
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

speaking as a male those comments by those men were ridiculous and if it was me I would probably just smile and take all their money then rub it in their face. just my two cents
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:15 PM   #116
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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interesting thread

i'd say dont respond. it's just words. take their chips. then at the end of it, when they're walking out busto, say something smart ass to them. like you just stuck it up their a$$
what's the point of trash talk if they're out of the tournament?
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:11 AM   #117
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

I can curse like a sailor outside the poker room, but when it comes to sitting at a poker table, I try to keep it civilized. When you have alcohol, close forced body contact and bad beats mixed in, people can anger easily. One of the reasons for the "no cursing or foul language" at the table is to prevent a verbal altercation escalating into a physical one. If you can keep a clear enough mind to hold your tongue in check, chances are, you will not be "taking it outside" to teach someone a lesson. I use my status as a woman (*****, whatever they want to call me under their breath) to enforce (yes, I mean enforce) civility at the table.

I've developed a system over the years. If they say something offensive or throw F bombs outside the occasional (omg I can't believe I lost on that river), I go the following route:

1. I tell them, "Hey, there is a lady/ladies at the table, watch those f bombs." Usually followed by a non threatening smile. If they talk say I need to live with it, I remind them that this is an actual poker room rule. If that doesn't work:
2. Tell the dealer, "Dealer, please control the table". If that doesn't work:
3. Tell the dealer, "Dealer, please control the table, if you can't I will call the floor". If that doesn't work:
4. I call the floor and explain the situation. The floor casually mentions to them to please watch their language, which 99% of the time shuts them up or they are taken aside for a more serious talk.

By now, I have educated all the dealers and all the floor on the type of behavior that I will not accept at my poker tables. My consistent persistence on enforcement of rules of civility has made enough of a difference that now, when I start walking to a table, the dealers usually warn the players to watch their language around me. The dealers are more bold about stopping the verbal abuse/cursing before I even have to get involved. No dealer wants to be embarrassed by a player telling them they are not doing the job and calling the floor to do their job for them.

As rigid as I am when it comes to this issue, I have found that most of the time there are at least a few other players (men/women) at the table that look at me gratefully for speaking out and I've had a number thank me out loud. I find it funny when I tell people "You've said the f bomb 3 times" and then get corrected by a guy next to me with him saying, "No, he said it 4 times".

The poker room is my work environment. Just because I'm a bartender in a bar and I have a lot of drunks around, it doesn't mean I want to hear "F you and I was gonna rape you". There is no work environment to me where that kind of language should be acceptable. Can you completely stop it? No. Can you control it? Yes.
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Old 06-29-2013, 12:36 PM   #118
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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Originally Posted by SGT RJ View Post
Not really.

Someone saying "I totally crush/own you" is completely different from "I totally rape you"
in both tone and implied threat and anyone pretending otherwise because of an old timey definition of a word is deluding themselves.

No one uses rape to mean anything other than a violent sexual assault anymore, whatever the original meaning of the word might have been. Claiming, even in a joking fashion, that anything that happens at the poker table is in anyway similar is offensive to many.
As much as I wish this wasn't true, because it is obviously more than just a little offensive, people DO use the word "rape" to mean "owned" or "crushed" depending on the context. I think you have online gamers from my generation to blame for that. Most of the time it's used, though, it's between 14 year old boys who don't know any better. A grown man who uses it in that context after losing a hand of poker to a female is quite sad.
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:17 PM   #119
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Definitely need to have tough skin when playing at the tables with the boys.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:21 PM   #120
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

While I understand women taking exception to certain terms we have to understand that we are the minority in a very male dominated field. I tend to just ignore what people say at the table, in poker Skype groups or where-ever. The turn around and let me see your ass comment is unacceptable as are other comments like this.

I was the only female player in a large stable of online MTT players. They have a large Skype group for the horses to discuss strategy, hands or whatever. When I first got staked the backer told me I was the only female in the group and he said he had warned the guys to keep it clean and threatened them with bans if they didn't. I told him that wasn't necessary. I didn't expect the guys to talk any differently with me in the group than without. I have no right to expect to enter any group of guys and think they should change the way they behave to accommodate me and my sensitivities. If I can't stand the heat I need to get out of the kitchen in my opinion.

Basically I can't stand the c-word but I will even ignore that as long as it's not directed at me. The guys weren't bad at all, they did use terms like raped and other typical "colorful" poker terms. I never really even thought about being offended by the rape term and tended to use it myself when I had a rough day. Over the 10 months I was in this group the only thing I called the guys out on was using gay, I just told them gay wasn't a derogatory term. They all agreed and said it was just a terrible habit and pretty much quit using it after that.

I think the need to tell anyone you just beat badly that you crushed, raped, owned or whatever term you use is just rude no matter which word you use. It's immature and egotistical and just tells me that the perpetrator is some silly jerk who more than likely sucks at poker.

Overall we are women in a man's world and we pretty much just need to suck it up and play the best poker we can. Taking their chips is the best revenge, now isn't it?

I'm way more offended by the "Royal Flush Girls" than anything being said at any poker table or in any Skype group. I so wish the World Poker Tour would wake the F up and get rid of these girls. I think I'll start a discussion about them.
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:03 PM   #121
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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While I understand women taking exception to certain terms we have to understand that we are the minority in a very male dominated field...

I have no right to expect to enter any group of guys and think they should change the way they behave to accommodate me and my sensitivities. If I can't stand the heat I need to get out of the kitchen in my opinion...

Overall we are women in a man's world and we pretty much just need to suck it up and play the best poker we can...
wow, girl. what's it like constantly telling yourself that you're less than deserving of respect?

we're "women in a man's world?" who "need to suck it up" and just accept it when men thoughtlessly use words like "rape" to describe something as trivial as losing a hand of poker? you've gotta be kidding me. you do realize that this "man's world" you're referring to is actually 51% ladyparts, no?

i don't know if anyone has ever taken the time to say this to you directly, but i need to tell you something really important: you DO have the right to be spoken to with respect, no matter WHERE you are.

i don't care if you're at a poker table, in a classroom, or at the post office: you deserve respect. you're not "a woman in a man's world" - YOU ARE A WOMAN. IN THE WORLD. shutting up and taking it "or get out of the kitchen" won't fix anything. all that does is validate their behavior and force women out of the poker community (...or comedy, or politics, or engineering, or any other field where women are in the minority. do you think women don't belong in any of these places either?)

you mentioned that you finally spoke up and said something when these guys carelessly threw the term "gay" around as an insult and they listened to you and stopped saying it. i wonder, if you (or your best friend or your aunt) had ever been raped would you stand up and say the same thing?

we live in a country where when 1 in 5 women has been raped in her lifetime so i think it's safe to say that this is an issue that affects us all. (http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/20..._violence.html) language is a very powerful thing. letting men get away with saying disrespectful, misogynist crap at the table doesn't make you seem cool or "like one of the guys" - it just makes you a complacent bystander.

listen, a lot of times straight white dudes are coming from a place of privilege and don't see their own bias. it's hard for some guys to understand the fact that just because they didn't INTEND for something they said to be hurtful, it still was. that's okay! you are perfectly 100% within your rights to stand up and say something when they make a misogynistic comment. you do NOT have to leave or "get over it" and shame on whoever taught you that that was the proper way to handle this kind of thing.

xoxo

/steps off soapbox

further reading: http://jezebel.com/amazing-white-lib...-for-979610243

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Old 07-31-2013, 11:50 PM   #122
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Maybe I can add some experiences outside of poker that I think are somewhat relevant.

I don't know what sports are like in America, but here in England I used to play quite a lot of 5-a-side football (soccer, 5 men on a smaller, usually enclosed, pitch). Intimidation and acting like a complete arsehole is usually part and parcel with the game. We were 17, entering the men's league for the first time, and the other team proceeded to kick the hell out of a guy on my team while I was stood as a substitute. I shouted "How many more times, ref?", and the guy next to me on their team, much older than me, looked at me, shrugged, and said "****ed him out of the game, haven't we?".

Frankly, the idea that we would get any quarter, or that every team we faced wouldn't try to intimidate us out of playing would've been laughed at. We'd entered a man's game, and they were going to knock seven shades of **** out of us every time we walked onto the pitch.

I'm not saying that this was conducive to the most sociable or fun environment, but it was very much up to us to toughen up or quit. There was no sense of making us feel welcome, and no chance of any reprieve.

This kind of aggressive environment has been my general experience across sports. And I think this is the environment that has bred the attitude that many men are expressing that is making many women feel (quite reasonably)rather uncomfortable. It's an attitude of "If you want to play at my table, I'm going to crush you".

Now, in poker we seem to be facing a rather difficult situation. That being, we are far more concerned than in other sports, partly due to the nature of the game, and partly due to the more intimate environment, with getting action and making opponents actually want to play us.

Equally, the less sporting setting in which poker is played changes the nature of how we interact. In the same 5-a-side league where players would try to kill us (not literally, although one lad I knew got his nose broken in an altercation with another player), you would walk off the pitch, shake hands, go to the bar and laugh about how close to fighting some players were. In poker we very much blur the lines of the social nature with the sport itself - a distinction that doesn't exist in other games.

For instance, I've also competed in Karate tournaments. On the mat, other competitors are looking to take your head off. Once the bout's over, the same bowing, touching gloves, and then generally laughing about the experience happens.

But anyway, if I can get to a point in my rambling, I think that many of the experiences I've had in sport are as, if not more, threatening than some of the things that are being considered too far. However the expectation has always been for me as a competitor to rise to the challenge rather than to expect the environment to change to be less intimidating.

Given the nature of poker though, this may not be conducive to promoting the game, keeping fish happy, and ensuring future action.

From reading this thread and other people I talk to, it seems as though there's a lot of confusion about both what we want and what we would like the experience at the table to be. Do we want to change the environment to encourage all players to enjoy themselves, or is there something to be said about the enjoyment of entering the lion's den and coming out unscathed?
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:27 AM   #123
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
This kind of aggressive environment has been my general experience across sports. And I think this is the environment that has bred the attitude that many men are expressing that is making many women feel (quite reasonably)rather uncomfortable. It's an attitude of "If you want to play at my table, I'm going to crush you".
yeah, hi, you can still be competitive and tough without using the word rape. saying you're going to crush someone is not the same as saying you're going to rape them. it just isn't. rape is a violent, gendered word specifically directed toward women. using it in a joking context is decidedly NOT cool when it's a very real thing that happens to 1 in 5 (1 in 5!!!) of us in the united states. think about allllll the women in your life that you know. there must be hundreds, thousands even, right? now consider the reality of that statistic.

all the arguments about "well, this is how it is in [blah blah blah] and that's how it's always been and it's never gonna change" mean precisely ****all. the truth is that things like this never change unless brave people stand up and demand it.

listen, i'm not saying poker isn't a competitive activity, it definitely is. i'm not even saying trash-talk isn't acceptable. (personally i'm a fan of placating the fish with smiles to keep them in the game as long as possible, but that's just me.) my specific gripe is when privileged white guys nonchalantly toss around the word "rape" in a public space and then claim "it's not a big deal, people say it all the time!" and "i didn't mean it in THAT way!" - whether or not they meant harm by it, it's still harmful.
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:03 AM   #124
Matt Crocker
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

Football is a terrible counter-example, especially given all the current campaigns to remove racist and homophobic language. If you haven't seen it Liverpool FC just issued a missive to their staff outright banning a whole bunch of "questionable verbal talk", and rightly so.

This is how stuff changes, sticking your head in the sand and going "it's a man's world, that's how it is" gets nothing done. It takes people to stand up, get off their asses and call people out to affect change.

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Old 08-01-2013, 10:17 AM   #125
Bladesman87
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Re: Where do you guys draw the line on questionable verbal talk at table?

I'm not saying that this is how it is, this is how it should be, and this is how it must remain. Nor am I saying that all talk must be permissible at a poker table. Far from it.

I'm just trying to offer some sense of the environment that has perhaps bred the attitudes at the table.

Actually, I think campaigns like Kick It Out in football are prime examples of where the game has drawn a line and said "This is too far" and mostly (at least on the pitch) stamped out language deemed unacceptable. And also done it without impacting on the competitive and aggressive nature of the game. Which is precisely the kind of boundary that I think should be struck.

So I'm certainly not going to sit here and defend the idea that threats of rape should be considered par for the course.

What I will say is that I think men should certainly be more aware of the meaning behind violent threats (although again, I think culturally men are taught to shut up and deal with it) given that, at least in the UK but I'd assume USA too, men are more likely than women to be the victims of assault.

Again I refer to a 5-a-side incident when I was around 18, a friend had been getting knocked about by a guy in his 30's and eventually he kicked this guy's legs out from under him. The bloke stands up and immediately headbutts my friend breaking his nose. Both were sent off, and a group of us stood between them to prevent any further trouble (not that my friend was at all interested in pursuing a fight).

Now, at an amateur level of football, or across pubs or clubs, or most venues that men go to, there is a genuine threat of violence to them. But what I think we have is a culture that seeks to promote a lack of empathy in men, because it seems so strange that men face violence and intimidation in their lives, but will still happily say "I would've beaten the **** out of you" at a poker table.

Assault is a real threat, and I'm sure you hardly know a man who hasn't had deal with it on some level. And yet we seem to have men that find it hard to relate to the idea that a seriously threatening remark might be taken as something other than table banter.

I'm not trying to compare being mugged to being raped, but hopefully you see where I'm coming from in that I find the lack of empathy men frequently have to be counter-intuitive given the general experiences.

I think that what I've said in this post is at least consistent with many feminist viewpoints.
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