Of course not, just as theres no way some of the women ITT could relate to the racism that a 60+ year old black man has experienced during his life or the homophobia that a 30+ year old gay man has experienced during his life.

But while being able to totally relate is overly idealistic, I still find the process of trying your best to relate to be extremely fruitful and beneficial.

The fact of the matter is that your feedback is utterly irrelevant. The point of that link I posted is that whether you like how the message is put to you is of no concern, what is important is that you "get off the foot". You apparently have now - great, wonderful, now onto the next guy and the next guy and the next.

It's pig-headed at best and paternalistic at worst that men best know how women should fight against oppression from men. It's purely an extension of the oppression - we're giving them no credit for knowing how to get their message across. (I use "men" and "women" poorly here - the truth is that both feminism and the patriarchy are a bunch of vaguely-linked groups and individuals)

Policing tone is generally used to distract from the main issue when the main issue is inconvenient or uncomfortable.

Two points:

1) Just because my rudeness is more overt does not mean you are being polite. I personally consider it rude that you've decided throughout this discussion that you know how best women should speak about their issues.
2) Throughout your posts you seem to not accept that rudeness is a valid method for affecting change, which is rubbish. Sometimes you use the carrot, sometimes you use the stick. Personally, I like the combo of both you usually get in these sorts of discussions. For every SGT RJ, you need a redhat_jane.

That was apparent to absolutely no-one given that you hadn't mentioned it at all. Rather than showing that you'd learnt anything, you showed that you'd misunderstood the issues when replying to SGT RJ and then laid into me and redhat_jane for tone. Yeah, you've clearly learnt a lot

======

You're quite a common type of respondent in these kinds of discussions. You can see the idea that's being put forward and you're sorta open to taking it on board, but rather than actually listening and learning you, for some reason (hint: it's that ego you "don't have"), feel like you need to wade in with your world-view and opinion despite the obvious fact that you're not very well educated on the subject. How can you be? You've only just learned that it's a problem.

Basically, if you want to "try your best to relate", shut up and listen.

If you come in asking for clarifications or contributing with educated, researched positions then you'll get your "debate in a kind manner". If you continue to come in with uneducated tripe you'll get some people who'll politely put up with you and some that'll have no time for you and will respond in kind.

so let me get this straight: i need to change my attitude and "pattern myself after SGT RJ" in order to appeal to your delicate sensibilities otherwise my thoughts aren't valid because i'm exhibiting "sh*tty behavior?"

yeah, no, you're totally right, that doesn't come off as condescending or misogynist AT ALL. because men haven't been telling me to smile and keep my mouth shut and be nice my entire life.

i also love how you've quoted me as saying that whether or not i personally have been raped shouldn't make a difference in how we discuss this issue. my entire point behind not discussing my personal experience (which, again, i am not obligated to share with you random stranger on the internet) is that you NEVER KNOW who has been raped or sexually assaulted, therefore it's impossible to know if you've triggered or offended someone sitting at the table.

and i still maintain that as a man (prrrrobably a white man, i'm guessing) you do not have any idea what the day-to-day experience of living as a woman entails. you don't leave the house and worry about being attacked if you leave a public place late at night, you don't have to deal with being groped by strangers on public transportation, or being assaulted on a dance floor at a nightclub. you don't know what it's like to sit in a Planned Parenthood to discuss your "options" or have to deal with people making judgements about your worth as a person solely based on the number of people you've slept with. as a man you don't have these fears instilled in you from early childhood, so when the ladies in the room are having a discussion about WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A LADY, perhaps your best bet is to just sit quietly and listen rather than injecting your ridiculous etiquette requirements into the debate.

i'm not your women's studies professor, your girlfriend, or your mother. i am entitled to discuss this issue passionately and in whatever way i feel is most effective. not to mention the fact that THIS FORUM WASN'T EVEN DESIGNED FOR YOU, IT WAS CREATED FOR WOMEN TO FORGE THEIR OWN SAFE SPACE FOR DISCUSSION WITHIN A HISTORICALLY MISOGYNISTIC & INSULAR COMMUNITY. ironic that you've basically come here to fish for praise about the progressiveness of changing your views (bully for you, mate!) yet you still felt the need to drag me and "my attitude" down because i did not appeal to you in the kindest manner possible. sorry, but i'm sick and tired of addressing these issues delicately. this is a serious topic with serious repercussions and couching my very real & valid opinions on the subject in niceties in the hopes of "converting" guys like you is not high on my list of priorities. you know what IS high on my list of priorities? telling guys they shouldn't use the word "rape" as a casual threat or insult and making sure i don't get assaulted on my way thru parking lots.

so if you're looking for an apology or an admission of guilt of some kind, i'm afraid you're in the wrong forum, honey.

(oh, and i bet you don't appreciate my condescending use of the term "honey" because it infantilizes you and makes you feel as if i'm discounting you as a person? welcome to every single poker game i've ever played in.)

It sounds like this attitude gets things moving forward but as I said above, I think it is also the best way to feel good about something, still being part of the problem.
It looks like it gets the work done but in my opinion this is almost the reverse: it is a way to keep the bad things going.
Politics and dealing with deep social issues really go forward when one's able to fight for a broader set of civil liberties that go beyond what you can relate to.
And you can't pick your fights and move along with people that 'can understand'. You have to find a way to deal with people that won't understand; at least for the moment and most of the time never.

How can you dare say "I went from 1% to 0% so it's all good now" or "I'm not part the rape culture". Do you really think you have evertyhing figured out so precisely that most of your work is done?
And when very articulate women tell you that's it's a ****ty paternalistic behavior you replied "I've done what I can" and insist that your way of 'understanding the other' is still the best?

PS: absolutely nothing gets me hotter than being the one voice that is consistently called out in this thread for being too aggressive/rude/uncaring with regard to men's feelings/experiences. clearly this means my voice is piercing through the debate and having some sort of effect. it truly makes my heart swell eight sizes when uninformed little boys stumble into this thread and are positively knocked on their asses by a flurry of radical ideas they've never encountered before. apologies if it goes down jagged, guys.

newsflash: not everything in this world was tailor-made for your consumption and/or approval! (and that's okay!)

The poker room is more like a locker room than a board room. Not sure why this is a huge surprise, maybe not right but it's reality. I can't imagine this would be a surprise for you if you've been playing for years.

why yes, thank you for your incredibly patronizing, simplistic description of what happens at the poker table. you know, it's funny, after playing in poker rooms for 12+ years i had never once been made aware of this fact!

and hey, great debate technique there saying "that's just the way things are so deal with it!" i am sure that civil rights movements the world over will cheerfully embrace your nuanced, helpful contribution with open arms. (because god knows if something is the way it is then that's clearly the end of the discussion.)

This is why it will always remain the same. People hear things that cross the line and they just say "Well, that's how it is" instead of actually doing something about it.

Pervs. Pervs everywhere.

There is no excuse for harassing a woman to the point where she feels embarrassed or uncomfortable. That behaviour is not acceptable anywhere and definitely not at a poker table.

Having said that, the rest of it, language and context-wise, is 100% fair game. It is entirely reasonable for one man to say to another, "my aces were totally raped, it was sick", without intending any offence to anyone, female or otherwise. It's just an expression like "u pussy" or "plays like a little girl". Although it is NOT OK to say to a WOMAN, "if the 7 of diamonds comes, I totally rape you". But it IS OK to say it to a man because it can't be taken in the literal sense (hopefully).

I'm a free speech kinda guy and as long as it is not intentionally insulting or degrading towards a specific individual, I don't think anyone has any right to get upset. Think how often phrases such as, "that was a suicidal play", "suicidal defending", "hanged out to dry" are used. Those kind of phrases are just as insulting as, "aces raped" to some, yet because one is perceived as being gender specific, it is somehow worse than the other?

How important is intent though? Should someone not face the consequences of their actions/speech if their intent is such-and-such? I mean, we live in a legal system where for most stuff intent is only a mitigating factor - it isn't a defence. Why should speech be any different?

It costs you absolutely nothing to cut this sort of table talk from your game and your life. It doesn't hurt your EV, it doesn't create a situation where you're unable to talk about a particular thing, it simply just helps some people to not feel like **** and makes you seem like less of an insensitive dick. And yes, I will be offended if you say that to a man (me or another) and I will tell you to cut it the hell out.

Oh, and bringing up "suicide" is pretty stupid given that I think people should cut that out too.

Cliffs: grow the hell up and show your tablemates some respect.

Hey man I have NEVER given a lady-player ANY form of abuse @ the tables. Other guys tho, lol, I will vent as and when I feel like it.

Intent does matter in pure legal terms - e.g. it was recently ruled in US and UK that having sniffer dogs and/or thermal imaging technology in the vicinity of a personal residence showed INTENT, an INTENT to search that was deemed unconstitutional.

I brought up the suicide thing as both genders will casually use these kind of phrases ad nauseum. If you watch any mainstream sport you will at some point in the broadcast hear the commentator say, "that was just suicidal", for whatever reason. Yes, that term IS offensive and I'm NOT insensitive towards it as the only reason I thought to mention it was the sensitivities a close friend of mine has for these phrases. Also phrases like "nut-job", "mental patient" etc are highly offensive to certain demographics, just as much if not more so than the demographic offended by, "totally had my aces raped". Although I'm pretty sure I wouldn't use that phrase myself in the company of ladies, HOWEVER, some gals at the tables are anything but ladies!

Oh and btw, LEGALLY speaking you can only be arrested for hate-crimes if the person likely to be offended has directly heard what you said - so, LEGALLY, it is just fine to be a racist prick if you are surrounded by only people of the same race. Likewise if you are surrounded by men and say, "u play like a girl, u pussy, raping my aces", legally speaking only a WOMAN is allowed to take offence from that, so you, as a MAN (?), have NO RIGHT, legal or otherwise, to be offended by the context of what was said.

Cleared that up for you? OK, grand.

As I said, I don't think any of these terms constitute polite conversation at the table.

You seem to be having trouble understanding my point - I'm not saying that these things come under hate speech. I am saying that your "intent" defence is twaddle.

What does and does not come under hate speech (especially given that US and UK law differs here) is completely irrelevant.

go to 20:25


sorry if it was already posted

I am a heterosexual male poker player. I'm usually the guy you want to play with because I'm too nice. I don't accuse an Asian player of being a ****ty driver, I don't ask a Persian how many 7-11's he owns, and I don't say anything to a woman that has anything to do with being a woman. Out of line.

My thoughts:

"Turn around so we can see your ass" -

I would like to think this guy doesn't hate women, he just wants the upper hand over you before you even sit down, but NO, the guy is a bully and a prick. I've NEVER seen anything that overtly ****ty at the table. What you might say in response ( in a bored deadpan voice ) "Pull down your pants so we can see your dick".

"If the 7 of diamonds comes I totally rape you"

Ahhh, I LOVE this one. The battle cry of every bat beat crybaby loser. LOSER. He was scolding you because he didn't hit a one-outer. Hilarious. A ONE OUTER ! lololol.

You gotta whip out my favorite response: "if my Aunt Betty had balls, she'd be my Uncle Betty". Works every time, usually gets a laugh.

I don't really think the solution to sexist comments is a quip at the expense of trans people.

Hey Matt, lighten-up. It's a joke. And it hopefully diffuses the horrible thing the guy said.

Yeah I'm gonna come into the women's forum and make fun of transgender people. You got me. Good job Matt. You tool.

You do realise that "it's a joke" is the exact defence that the 7 of diamonds guy would use, right?

I would imagine that most trans people would not appreciate your "joke". It may not have been your intention, but you have come into the women's forum (which contains an GLBTQ thread, remember) and made fun of trans people.

Matt - I took the time to read your last 20 or so posts. I guess the nicest way to say it is, at least you're consistent. Hope you have a great, non LGBT- threatening day.

[/stopped reading]

That was so painful to watch. I bet vanessa was just hoping for the 6 so she wouldn't have to be stuck with that guy.

Btw, why would he just blurt that out? Did I miss some context or did they whisper something with the dealer? I don't get it.

Right on, Sister <raises clenched fist>

I had forgotten about that yeah I wonder where he was going w that? Lol.

Jesus Christ, i tried to read all people's post, then i realized it will be loosing time.If some of you, writing 500 words for a bad beat how many words will you use for cheaters, like rigged rats? sorry, misspeling rigged stars*
They closed rigged section, too much for them .... they have a soul, too....