I think this is turning out to be a great thread, its a good read for people like me who have yet to go and play live, it gives a bit of perspective and now I'll be a little better prepared. Thanks for all of your insights and opinions so far, looking forward to more!

Let me broaden this a bit:

People play really poorly.

agree, just don't see a problem with it.
namecalling is a just a helpless way of expressing some frustration/aggression and it is up to the attitude/mindset of the person hearing those 'insults' to do whatever they want with it. taking it seriously and even personally and actually feeling insulted is not an option i would choose and I think everyone who chooses that option has a hard time getting a happy life in general while they will be busy creating all those problems for themselves. I think i posted something along the lines before, so sorry if it is repetitive:
no matter if it is at the tables, at the forums, at work, sports or familyrelated: it helps to work on your self-esteem and take what is to learn from situations and leaving the insults aside. you get nowhere in life if you get distracted/disencouraged by little things like insults that are just made to throw you off your course.
(obv. whenever i used 'you' i meant it in general and to noone in particular)

I dont know how to express this. This is not just about how male players TREAT women differently but how they PLAY differently against women. There may be no outward signs and you may never know it if you dont see their hole cards.

While some men clearly play against women differently, my biggest issue has been safety when it comes to playing live. I have been followed more than once around Foxwoods (and even one time so far as the parking lot). I have definitely dealt with a good deal of harassment throughout the years, but it comes with the territory.

So in your world, it should be okay to call people by ethnic slurs as well, since they can just choose not to be insulted by it?

There is a difference to intelligence based insults and sexually charged insults and if you don't get that I'm not sure it can be explained to you. My b/f and I actually had a discussion about this a while back - there's no way a man can fully appreciate what it's like to know that you are at risk of being physically and sexually assaulted just because of your gender.

I'm not saying I think male poker players are out to sexually harass/assault women players. I do think they should be more sensitive to using sexually charged insults, as they can make female players feel less safe.

Foxwoods is full of degenerate thieves.

What do you play at Foxwoods?

any NLHE MTTs in the range of 120-200 or 1/2NL

no. in 'my world' i appreciate if people find other ways to express their frustration rather than insulting others like a 4 year old. however 'in my world' I don't see why one should feel insulted just by (a few) word(s).

i admit i might be pretty much insensitive by now due to being a woman, german and a mod at another forum. i don't think there is anything i haven't been called and i would be wreck by now if i would take all that or any of it personal

Meh. I'm not insulted by most slurs either, nor do I take them personally, but I think for the good of the game and getting other women involved it shouldn't be tolerated.

Moreover, I think it should be the other men who object, since if a female objects (however politely) to having been referred to in a sexual manner then lol emotional females can't take a joke.

The reason racial slurs aren't tolerated (much) anymore is because EVERYONE started saying "Hey, that's not right". Gender/sexuality based slurs will follow the same track, one would like to hope. Eventually. But people sitting back and saying "Well, I'm not insulted by it so it doesn't matter" doesn't do the next person a damn bit of good.

And I would disagree that this isn't relevant in online poker, either, since the players, almost always assuming that there are no females at the table, sometimes spout off with some pretty vile ****.

I have needed a security escort from the borgata poker room on more than one occasion. I have needed a security escort from a local card room because someone threatened to sexually assault me. I have had someone stand up from the table and start screaming at me that I was a bitch and a whore ON THE TOURNAMENT FLOOR AT THE WSOP in front of my friends and my mother (and the TD too, so lolhim).

If you haven't had similar experiences then I'm happy for you, but it's an unfortunate reality that stuff like this isn't all that uncommon. It's not just an issue of civility but of safety as well.

If you don't understand how this is a huge problem I don't think any amount of explaining will get it through to you.

So annoying. That's why I don't play a lot of live poker, it often makes me hate humanity. When people act like jerks online, I just think it's hilarious.

On another note, do you think it's bad or good for you equity wise to come off as a more serious/stronger player?

I'm torn on this issue... obv it's sometimes an advantage to be considered a weaker player than you are (especially since the weak female player stereotype tends to be "weak-tight", which can be very good to exploit at the later stages of an MTT), but on balance I think it's probably better to be feared, especially since being feared/respected can help one's confidence, which creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I am really suprised by some of the comments in this thread. I have played a lot of poker over the last few years, and nearly 40 hours a week for the last 2 years, and don't remember ever hearing a woman called a bitch, whore, or anything else like that at a poker table.

I do play mostly 8/16 or higher limit poker; there are fewer women than there are at the NL games, and the men and women are both on average older, not sure if that could make the difference or not. I have played a decent amount of NL as well though, in games often with lots of younger men and several younger women, and I have never seen this kind of hostility. Most of the young guys seem to like having young women at the table to socialize with (as I would as well).

Or is this only (or mostly) a tournament phenomenon? I don't play those at all.

People are usually fairly well-behaved at my tables, too. Am at the Venetian right now tho and my dealer thought a player called her "an itch with a b" when all he actually said was "yes."

I had to explain to her that's not what he said. She was still skeptical for a bit.

I don't feel people are aggressively rude to me that frequently because I'm a woman, usually either condescending (which can be annoying depending on how I'm running) or friendlier than usual (which is nice).

The reason I don't like playing live poker is that I *want* to like people, and the things people say about poker, luck and to the dealers at live tables often makes it hard to do that and leaves me feeling misanthropic. Though lately when I play live I'm having more enjoyable experiences, may just be small sample size or maybe people are more aware of poker etiquette these days.

I am torn on it as well. When all this started happening last Fall, I decided to do an experiment over a few random live tournaments and decided to be overtly friendly/happy/cheery at the table. And I experienced a completely different dynamic. Like completely different. Which has to make me wonder, Why? Is it just because a girl who is talking and joking is acting "more in her place" by being the social butterfly type that a lot of men typically desire/approve of this socially expected female behavior? Or is it because I am being more social so then I'm not perceived as a "threat" anymore - as in I could not possibly be perceived as a serious player because I am chatting/joking so much - and so they take it easy on me?

It's definitely tough...and has honestly dampened my spirits when I leave the house to play live poker. When I played 100% online from January thru September of 2010, I remember I was so anxious to get back to live tournaments. And then about 30 minutes into that first live tournament of the year, I was wishing I was back home playing online.

I really enjoy playing live cash/tourney poker, regardless of the boorish behavior that I sometimes encounter. I'd say that my experience has been 70/30 - good experience outweighing the bad.

I always try to be friendly when playing, but like the other ladies, I'm serious as a heart attack when I'm sitting there. I find that the guys are always friendly and sweet...until you take down a big pot against one of them.

My experience has been that up to the point when I take down a big pot, guys are very friendly and solicitous, often giving me tips and pointers - I've even had guys tell me not to make a bet when they've got me beat, and they SHOW THE HAND. I love it.

I'll add, I don't think they do that because I'm some looker or anything (I don't think I am) or because I dress provocatively, showing cleavage (I don't). I just try to be friendly.

I wrote a recent blog post about this issue though because I've noticed that I and all the other ladies in this particular group that I play in locally (a league here in town) have been getting some really jerky behavior thrown our way. Maybe it's the intensity of the competition (some of the guys have taken down WPT tourneys) and what you can win (we're gunning for points to $1000 WSOP seats). It's kind of the same concept - as long as we're not winning, we're tolerated. As soon as we start winning, it's a different ballgame altogether.

Whatever, I don't care. I just turn on the iPod and tune it to Aretha: R.E.S.P.E.C.T. And try to take down another pot. =)

I just want to say for the record that I'm very rarely hassled when playing live - most players tend to be friendly, and there's the occasional flirting but nothing out of hand. It's not like I expect to get hassled playing live (I expect in more online TBH, and not because I'm female since no one can tell ldo), but it does happen on infrequent occasions.

But when tempers get heated and people do start flinging the insults, I think it's a valid point that women should not be subjected to sexually based insults. If you want to insult my play (lol donk) I'm not going to be overly offended. Sexually based insults are, however, more dangerous and threatening in a way I'm not sure guys could understand.

A very timely thread and a great new femforum here on 2p2. I'm venturing to play some live cash games in LV next week and was wondering what to expect. Did a search and BAM - this thread popped up.

Thanks for the advice and observations and gl to us all.

There's also some good, general, gender-neutral stuff on playing live poker in this thread.

Venice posted some good links & CKB brought a lot of content...
1st time Playing Live

Agreed.

I haven't played a lot of poker lately, but when I did play, I usually played in live home games. In my experience, my presence made the other male players act more extremely than they normally would. If I was in a hand against a nit, they'd suddenly become a super-nit and fold on a simple continuation bet on the flop. If I was in a hand against an aggressive player, the hand went to showdown every time, regardless of how heavy I would bet on each street. Not necessarily a bad thing, just gets tricky when both types want to join in playing the same hand at the same time.

ok I'm not a female but I have a question. How many of you complaining about poor treatment were playing 1/2 or a similar ~$100-$200 buy-in tourney? Of the limited 1/2 I've played it's full of bitter table coaches who want to tell everyone else how to play but in reality suck pretty bad and aren't making any money. While I haven't seen it happen I could totally see one of those guys getting upset and flipping out and making sexist comments. Mostly when I play 5/10 though females come in 2 categories:

1. fish, all the regulars with a brain are nice to them then. It always pays to keep them comfortable to stay around and keep donating money, although once in awhile another fish or dumb reg decides to make a comment when she sucks out and stacks him as all fish do from time to time.

2. regulars, they're treated the exact same by other regs with brains as any other regular. Most female 5/10 regs are oldish who have been playing forever and just fold every hand and are happy to let everyone know it. Occasionally I've seen the female reg with a brain (not anything against females with that comment because I don't think many live players have a brain whether they're male or female). I remember playing 10/25nl at AC during the WSOP circuit and had another reg ask me what I thought about a hand with the one female reg who seemed to have a brain. His reads weren't "girl". They were stuff like "likes to raise flops with draws but rarely with pure air, double barrels with any equity and gives up river a lot when the draws miss", like actual legit reads that you'd have on anyone else. I can see how the occasional fish could get upset and mouth off at a female regular who stacks him but I have yet to see this happen. I also remember playing a ME at turning stone it was running the same time as the ladies event and one girl comes over to our table and talks about the hand the way any random fish would and the one woman at our table says "yep I'm in the right tourney". She was competent and seemed to know most of the other obviously 2p2 male mtt regs at the table and I'm assuming is a 2p2er and again all the other regs were just treating her as another reg.


So basically my point is this. If you're getting insulted based on gender it's probably by someone who's bad at poker (and bad at life but that's a story for another day). Yes it sucks but in general security will handle it if it gets too out of hand and usually it's nothing more than a fish who's upset that you sucked out or a reg who's too dumb to realize that his money comes from opponents making a mistake not from teaching them all how to play (although if they're tapping the tank they're usually fishregs anyway).


The one thing I can't stand though is the females at the table that have the attitude of showing everyone else how good they are to "disprove the myth" that females suck at poker. Like whether you're male or female at the table your goal should be to make money, have fun, play the game, whatever. I can think of no goal in the game that would be furthered by telling people you are good at said game. Guys do it as well and it's just as obnoxious, when the table coach starts lecturing on pot odds (which he clearly just read about yesterday) or telling the fish how bad it is that they limp/call and play fit or fold on the flop a bunch it's really tilting and it's the same way with girls that are trying to make a point to the table that they're a good player and not just another fish. If you just play your game, be friendly with other people at the table, and don't stress it I guarantee you have a much better time and much less a chance of people making sexually insulting comments towards you.

Anyway sorry I wrote so much but basically as long as girls don't expect to be treated differently in the poker room I think in general today it's a pretty good atmosphere and you won't have a ton of problems. I can't say how it was 5 or 10 or 20 years ago but I can say that now aside from having the occasional guy hit on you if you're young you shouldn't have a ton of problems. If you're just a recreational player expect the regulars to be nice to you and make it a friendly environment. Expect fish to pay you off and not fold as much to you (they already hate folding) and expect good regulars to adjust to you just like they would any other player.

ummmmm.......

lol way to quote me completely out of context.