This was very poor behaviour on the part of the two sites, and I think that Rosa definitely is owed an apology. Sadly, I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening.

It is true that the media can be unfair at times to everyone, but my observation over the years is that when it comes to trans people the reporting is almost always unfair, unbalanced, and inaccurate. The only time you seen trans folks in any kind of story, it is in some form of exploitation, usually sensationalizing the gender/sexuality of the subject.

Sadly, we are a very small and extremely poorly understood minority that the media just can't or refuses to understand and we lack a large well funded media watchdog group to keep the shoddy writing at bay. That makes us an easy target for tabloid style headlines, sophomoric jokes, and ridiculous stereotyping that would draw lawsuits from other minority communities

I am appreciative of those who have complained to the sites about this injustice. It seems like it's going to take many many more efforts like that to get any kind of respect shown to trans people.

Shauna

PS. if anyone knows how to contact Rosa, I'd love to get in touch with her. It's not often I find another girl like me playing poker; I only know of one other. Thanks.

Seriously....who gives a damn about who or "what" someone is?

Poker is the most democratic activity one can do - it doesn't matter where you're from, how old or young you are, male or female, uneducated or learned, penis, no penis, somewhere in-between....it doesn't matter..

All that matters is what you do at the table with your cards and chips.

I don't care who you are as long as you don't smell.

I may not be the most connected player in the poker scene, but ... looking at watch ... it's been a LOT longer than five minutes and I'd not heard of her before this ladies event.

So, then, to indicate to you my respect, should I address you as a dbag?

I've played with Rosa Lee on the East Coast at Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun Ladies Events including the 2010 NAPT Mohegan Sun Ladies Event in which she final tabled. She even received some publicity last year as a transgendered woman playing the WSOP - Ladies event for not only being transgendered, but for being a published author as well. So its not like she is a complete unknown as shes been on the circuit for a few years and has even cashed in open events. FWIW at Mohegan, I corrected a friend of mine in the poker media who referred to her as a "tranny" in a post.

Her book is entitled The Letter F:: The process of civilly changing sex.

Not sure if anyone realized this but she also was the subject of a 2+2 thread here:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...w-tits-696681/

If you read her bio you will see that she was a math and physics major in college which may explain her success at the poker table

Dollars to donuts she identifies herself as a female and she dresses and accessorizes well

See below:

Everyone in the poker media should be aware of the bigger threads on 2p2, and this above was such a thread.

very well said - on the topic in hand, extremely crude and mean. do yourself a favour and boycott the site

It's nice to hear this, because those who run the site have tried to argue that my protests are drawing more ridicule on the transgendered community. They think that we should just let this injustice pass quietly now that they've deleted the photos without comment.

It is my belief that harm was done to more people than just Rosa (though she was obviously harmed the most, and the most directly). What bothers me is that the readers of their websites who saw those jokes got the implication that it was okay to make fun of people who are different. If a photo is quietly deleted later, most readers will never, ever know.

This is why I demand that they publicly apologize in the same blogs where the offending jokes appeared. They need to explain to their readers that what they did wasn't right, and why.

I feel very strongly about this.

I had the pleasure of playing at the same table as Rosa at one of the Borg's $175 /re-entry tourneys a year or so ago. When she got busted out after a while, the only comments made by the all male group at the table were in regard to her playing style. It was one of the proudest moments of my poker playing days.

I'm not sharing any furhter info on her style as I plan on keeping it to myself for next time we meet across the felt.

AW

Whew! I'm glad then I'm not in the poker media, and I'm really sorry I clicked through that link.

You can't be serious. Really?

I understand the way you feel but disagree with your opinion.

Also, I doubt either site will provide you with the relief you demand.

Will simply note that Dunkin Donuts at Foxwoods charges more than $1 for a donut.

Makes me a bit sad that this saying is soon going to have no meaning.

Obviously, I don't think anyone should be ridiculed on the basis of sex, gender, orientation, race, or whatever. The fact that this kind of **** still goes on sometimes SHOULD be offensive to EVERYONE.

I've said before that it won't actually be until the average GUYS start complaining about blatantly misanthropic, sexist, gay-bashing, and other offensive hate speech that it will actually start to go away. As long as there are guys who think that other guys find that speech funny or cool in any way, it will persist. I also think this type of speech is relatively rare, but guys who think women are exaggerating about some of the stuff we (we meaning women) have heard at the poker tables need to pull their heads out of their asses. Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Calling another player a "donk" or a "******" is completely different from using sexual slurs or speech.

On the specific manner, as long as there are women's only events (like there are seniors only events, or casino employee events), then of course a transgendered woman should be welcomed to participate.

I guess you have never read Michael Konik's book about the guy who had breast implants or you are unaware that non-surgical fake breasts are available.

I did not know of Rosa Lee before this thread and honestly, had I seen the picture out of context, I would have thought it a photoshop. Sorry if that offends but it is my honest opinion.

But I found nothing caption worthy of the photo and found nothing wrong with Rosa wearing pearls and having cleavage, but I grew up in an era when pearls were more common.

I want to say that I feel what happened to Rosa Lee was deliberate and deplorable.

As you can see by the part I bolded in the mod's post, she threatened to ban the next person who spoke about the subject of women's only tournaments. Was it:

a) a short ban for the posters I quoted above
b) the mod decided not to institute a ban; or,
c) no ban was instituted because the posters were in favor of such tournaments.

Hopefully, it was a or b and not c.

My apologies for thinking Venice10 is a woman. I made a stupid assumption based on this being a women's poker area that the moderator would be female. Other posts seem to indicate Venice is a male.

really? This is the argument you chose? And it wasn't non-surgical.

I am sorry for anwering what seems, now, to have been a rhetorical question. But you did ask and I gave a honest anwer. If you did not want an answer or did, but didn't like my answer, that is your problem and not mine.

Having looked at the pictures more closely, I'm almost positive I saw this woman last year at the Venetian (she stands out), and while it's fairly obvious she's transgender, it's also very obvious that she is a she (hair, dress).

It's a contentious issue (biological gender vs. assumed gender/identity), but it's very clear that this individual feels and identifies as female - no one would undergo the surgical and lifestyle changes otherwise, to say nothing of the scrutiny and ridicule she has surely undergone. I wouldn't have any problem playing a women's only event with her at my table.

It's not like poker is a physical event. This issue gets a lot more complex when you are talking about physical sports, but for poker this seems like a no-brainer. It's not like men are going to rush out and get sex reassignment surgery just to gain a competitive advantage in women's only poker events, because there is no definitive competitive advantage in poker to being male or female. Individuals may make assumptions of others play based on gender (just like they do on age or clothing style), and people may use their image to their advantage, but everyone has the opportunity to do so, ergo there is no advantage.

As I have said, I agree what Wicked Chops did was wrong, but if all someone had to go on was the photo, they would not definitely know the person was transgender. As I pointed out, there has been at least one male who underwent breast augmentation and was not doing so to become the opposite sex.

OMG, give it up already as some kind of evidence that a guy would get a BA because, for all intents and purposes, the only people that get boob jobs are women or are transsexuals that wish to be identified as women.

Seriously, how dense can someone be to wonder if she is a guy in drag? It's not complicated.

So, there's tens of thousands of people that have gotten male-to-female gender reassignment surgery, and "at least one male" that you heard got breast augmentation without intending to reassign his gender. And your argument is that the logical conclusion is to assume it's this one particular guy, who's randomly decided to play in a women's poker tournament? Really?

First I want to say that the following isnt leverage in an argument against transgendered people. I agree with the majority here on that.

But I think Cotton Hill has a point and I disagree with pezbaby about it being acceptable to abuse and ridicule people even though I do not support men playing in ladies tournaments and even though it is a non-issue now [because in future years men wont be playing anymore.] I came here because I think pezbaby probably has the majority opinion of women on this issue and I feel strongly about it.

At the WSOP every year everyone cheers for the men that bust out and it is basically disrespectful and unsportsmanlike. Do the men "deserve" to be disrespected? -- that's another issue. My feeling is that people who try to make the men uncomfortable are on a similar level to the men who make women feel uncomfortable by playing the ladies event. It just doesn't feel that way because it is socially acceptable if everyone else is doing it. But it doesn't make it right. At the very least women can "be the better man" and not have to bring themselves down to the lowest common denominator by booing people out when someone ruins the party.

Your argument for why its okay to abuse men playing the tournament is essentially "an eye for an eye." Although most feel this is justified/okay, it's not. The fact is people are being intentionally hurtful. Whether a guy "had it coming" or not is kind of irrelevant. Also note that at the time the men playing were in the letter of the law which is why some of this stuff makes me uneasy. Again I do not support these male players but what people did, especially to the guy who made the final table, is more or less trying to exact vigilante justice through bullying, and it can be very hurtful. For example, someone murders someone and does 25 years in prison. He gets out of prison and there are picket lines around his house every day and some even do minor things like breaking his windows, but this is "justified" because the neighborhood doesn't want a murderer in their community. Maybe I'm in the minority but its not right to put yourself above the law.

Some of that **** is very hard to shake off. If, just like a highschool senior with low self-esteem being picked on, if Jon Epstein killed himself after winning the ladies event would everyone feel better? Is that what he has to do in order to make it clear to everyone in poker that bullying is more than just a joke? Doesn't matter if he had it coming btw. And that proposition isn't actually that far off the mark: men who enter the ladies tournament are actually more likely than the average wsop entrant to be broke/degenerate/hate themselves, for obvious reasons.

Anyways, it kind of makes me sick that this behavior was tolerated and encouraged for so long. Thank God there was one woman at the final table who said to Jon amidst the circus.. something like: "dont worry about what they are saying honey, just play your game as best you can." In my mind that person is a beautiful person and a good role-model for how women should act during the tournament, and notice how much better she comes off. "Kill them with kindness" as they say. In summary, stop bullying losers.


Edit: I forgot to mention how this is correlated to the transgender issue. Basically there was a long and deeply ingrained culture in the history of the Ladies event involving abusing men. This spilled over into abusing this transgendered woman too. Obviously the latter is wrong, but my point is the former is wrong too, and so Cotton Hill's point stands that maybe without this tradition of abuse, Rosa would have never been ridiculed. No one likes to agree with that "former" point because no one really wanted men to play the Ladies tournament except for maybe the men playing, and they feel that if men aren't ridiculed then more would play. But the point is still true.

Rosa is a fixture on the East Coast Circuit.
I have played with her both at Borgata and Foxwoods.

Most recently in January at the Borgata Winter Open. It was the first time we actually conversed admitting that we had seen each other a bunch in the past few years.

In the few times I have been at the same table with her I have not witnessed men making rude or inappropriate comments.

Actually, the table we were at together in January was a pretty interesting situation because a man on my right was using two large, metal nuts that were glued together to kind of form a figure 8 as his card protector. I made a semi suggestive comment about it that sent the entire table into a laughing frenzy. We started discussing the correlation between "nuts" and how it relates to poker and "other things" and you can imagine how the conversation took on a life of its own. Rosa was right there with the men, as was I, going back and forth with the borderline comments that were all in good taste. It was a fun time. I was very happy to see this.

A couple of the guys made the initiative to shake her hand when she busted, which is rare in and of itself these days.

I just skimmed the thread but I'll add my two cents anyway.

1) Why are we outraged at these websites? All they did was point out the low-class actions of a select few guys who dressed as women so they could play in an exclusive tournament. Just because ONE of those guys dresses up as a woman outside of poker, it's offensive? Seriously folks, every single one of you has more important **** going on in your life to worry about

2) Why the outpouring of sympathy for this woman? She CHOOSES a lifestyle that is garaunteed to skew people's perceptions of her, EVERY SINGLE TIME. Now we're shocked, and horrified that some photographer/reporter could make this kind of mistake? Jesus.

If you want to be transgendered, that's fine. Just understand that when you go out, dressed to be noticed, people are going to have a hard time processing cleavage AND an adam's apple. So, the next time you want to strut your huge calf muscles around in a pair of stillettos, just understand that there IS a significant portion of the population that thinks it's ridiculous.

If you want to be transgendered and avoid that kind of ****, then put on a baggy tshirt and a hat.

If you want to strut your stuff becuase you think you're hot sh-t and you want to show who you are on the inside, that's fine too. But just remember, not everyone has to agree with you.

And for what it's worth, I don't think that men playing in ladies-only tournaments is necessarily a bad thing.

If you play just because you want to play a tournament and want to prove that you technically can't be excluded, then fine, play, but you're a douchebag.

But I was in a charity card room one time, and they had organized a ladies event to benefit a breast-cancer related charity. There were two guys who were locals and regulars in the room. They dressed in drag, and showed up to play. They were allowed in, and were very courteous and played along with all of the ribbing and jokes that came with being dressed in drag.

one of them cashed in the tournament, took back his buy-in, left a small tip for the dealer, and then gave the rest to the event organizer for the charity.

Pretty classy move, I thought.

She is transgendered, not a cross-dresser. It's not a lifestyle, and theoretically, it's a choice to live as a woman, but it's not a choice if your brain and your genitals aren't in tandem.

So yeah, some of us are offended by the bigger picture here - not one person's specific reaction to another. And FFS, the bigger picture is not men playing in ladies events!