I absolutely hate the Royal Flush Girls, not them personally of course but the whole concept.

I have no issues with Playboy or Penthouse or even porn for that matter but I just hate the RFGs. I find it/them/the concept very off putting and antiquated. I also HATE, HATE, HATE the way Mike Sexton talks about them, I hate this almost as much as when he kept saying "Have you lost your poker home" right after Black Friday. I hate the "social bar" too. A bunch of nerds, who none of these girls would ever talk to in irrl, sitting there is just pretty sad.

Poker needs to be moving forward where women are concerned and having this type thing for a big tournament series group is just wrong and moving backwards instead of forward. It's just plain sexist imo.

I'd love to know how others feel about this.

Hate the winners pics when they have the girls crowding round them in the shot - like the won the big pile of money and the girls?

Need to see what they do when a women wins do they still get the girls to crowd round them for a photo? Do you get the option to not have them in the shot as well for it just generally being... well wired that they are there at all? If I'd traveled to play an event as a guy and my girlfriend couldn't make it wouldn't really want that to be the pic she sees.

It's funny you brought this up, because my wife and I had a conversation about these women just a few days ago.

My personal take on them, at the start of the conversation, was that I hated the whole idea of the Royal Flush girls. To me they served no purpose: They detracted from the focus on the game, were often the subject of their own little snippets, are featured prominently at the bar behind the "game", are onstage with the winners, posted on their facebook page...I mean it's almost like they were the FACE of the WPT!

Strangely enough, my wife was surprised that I was so adamant against the idea. When I asked her to explain, she made a very good point: The RFG's are not there for my sake, I'm already a player. They're there to "glamorize" poker to those on the outside, to help lure new people into the game.

If you watch a Poker Tournament you realize that what they show on most TV is not a real poker tournament. It's snippets, highlight reels of hands that make good tv. Real final tables, like the PCA 2013 High Roller Tournament go on for hours and hours and hours, and most of this is not riveting play to the average person. But even if you splice the game up and only feature highlights, it's still not exactly the most exciting thing to watch if you're not really into it. So if you're not watching, then the show becomes a losing venture. It gets pulled off the air.

The Royal Flush Girls serve as the anchor to the WPT brand, because they present an external perception of the tournament to those who would otherwise not be attracted to the WPT.

Think of it this way: The general perception of poker is that it's gambling. Gambling, like it or not, has direct associations with money, sex, and power. Hit it big? Hot Men and Women will flock to your side, champagne corks pop, fancy cars, red velvet ropes lift for you, and so on and so forth. Instant superstar status. This is even more reinforced by their WPT club: Their winner is always shown with the RFG's multiple times during their broadcasts, reinforcing the "YOU COULD BE THIS GUY" image. That's what Moneymaker was: He wasn't a terribly good player, he was a regular guy who became world champion through a cheap satellite. His value was as a symbol, not as a player.

The RFG's play into this whole idea to the general public, not with the intent of glamorizing the game to those who are already in it, but with the intention of attracting people to the game with disposable income.

And who in the world has the BIGGEST source of disposable income? Young men and women, ages 18-35. The time in your life when sex is on the brain, you thirst for adventure, and the money....well you get the idea. They're also one of the demographics most likely to be up late at night or early in the morning, the traditional time slots for any poker-related program NOT labeled WSOP to be on.

And of course, these foolish individuals, lured into watching a bit of the WPT for the sexuality, the money, and the perceived power, think to themselves: "Hey, poker looks freaking easy. I'll take a shot at it!"

And thus, another sucker for the sharks to feed on.

Really, that's what the RFG's are all about: Attracting newbies to the game of poker and they do it using the path of least resistance. Sex, Money, and power. Be it on TV, or at your home game, or through the casinos themselves, they are attracting new fish to the game, viewers to their TV show, and more money for poker players as a whole.

Is it sexist? Probably. I can't find an argument against it being sexist. Do I want it to stop? Hell no. I'll take the fish at my table any way I can get them. If the newbies want to drop $1000 on the tables with dreams of easy money, cheap women, and fast times I'll be right there to show them the hard cold reality: Most of us players are not interested in the Royal Flush Girls, or Diamond Draw Boys, or anyone like them. At the table, we want your money.

This x 1 mirrion!

The WPT is a business and is catering to a certain demographic. If you pretend for a moment you're not well versed in poker, and see a final table episode for the first time there are certain things that'll move you:

-The excitement of winning life changing money
-The possibility of becoming a champion
-The allure of a lifestyle you can be part of if you succeed (The RFGs are a part of that "vision")

The idea is to help bring players to the game and build WPT as a brand.

Any business is going to do what they can to remain/become successful, so if that means hiring hot girls to throw cash on the table when it's heads up that's what they'll do. As long as it works and the majority is satisfied they won't change anything.

I totally understand that it's branding to show poker as an exciting, sexy and fun game but that doesn't make it right, imo. It's still antiquated and sexist, yes I get that a huge percentage of people drawn to the game are young guys but I'd like see more women drawn to the game as well. How do you think the guys would feel if the Chippendales were gathering around them when they won a main event.

I guess I also don't love the association with normal gambling hype, especially since so many people are working so hard to get people and the US government to understand that poker is a game of skill vs a game of chance. Using this type of branding throws poker in with other gambling and just gives out the wrong message.

I guess bottom line if it brings more people to the game that's great but I think it's off putting to a lot of women who might otherwise take an interest in the game.

Hell. ****ing. Yes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not into guys like that, but I'd love to see some half-naked dudes strutting their stuff along - Or even in place of!!! - the Royal Flush Girls. You're probably asking the wrong guy though, I was brought up in a household that was never ashamed of the human form, be it male or female. I was taught to appreciate, not be embarrassed, envious, shy, or jealous of how a body looks. To me the body, regardless of it's size or shape, is a persons work of art. Some are Rembrants, others are...works in progress. But each are to be cherished for their own values.

You're also talking to a guy who takes his mom to the Thunder Down Under when it comes to town. And no, I'm not staying in the car THANKYOUVERYMUCH! How ELSE am I supposed to learn the moves to make my wife swoon? This is actually not a joke. As an aside, let me tell you my wife thinks its great when I "perform" but when I practice in a mirror, let me tell you I look and feel like one of those kids who had a seizure watching anime.

But despite my personal, fairly liberal leanings (and my lack of dancing coordination), I get what you are trying to go for and to be honest - I'm in complete support of it. If your target audience is women and you want to use sex to attract them to your game, bring on the Fabio's, the half naked Gus Hansens, the Australian Beefcakes, and the Hunky Cowboys. Its a legitimate strategy.

The problem with the "Gambling vs Skill" argument is that it's never going to ever be resolved in the fashion that we, as poker players, want. There will always be the association with gambling with poker, regardless of it's inherent skill level. This is because money is the tool we use to play the game. Anytime money is involved, a modicum of gambling is always assumed. This is true in most ventures: You're taking a gamble in the stock market, in real estate, in investing, in stocks, in bonds, in subsides, and so on and so forth.

Except...it's not just limited to money either.

Gambling is taking a chance on something and hoping it comes out right, and in everything we do there is a huge element of chance. Simplistically speaking, we gamble every time we drive to work, every time we try a new restaurant, every time we go out with our friends, on a date, and so on and so forth. We just don't process it that way because the odds are usually way in our favor, and we never consider the fact that when things don't turn out to be the way we want them to be then we've lost our gamble. We had a bad date, or the food was horrible, or we got into a fight with our friends. We gambled that we were going to have a good time...and we lost.

Okay so back on point: There will always be an element of gambling in Poker because there's an element of gambling in life. In everything we do. We can go all in with AA against KK and we'll lose 19% of the time. We'll have the nut straight with one card to come and sometimes we'll get slapped by a backdoor flush. In poker, just like in life, you can do everything right and still lose. That's not a failing, that is how life goes.

So will we get poker classified as a game of skill? You betcha. Will it ever lose it's association with gambling? Nope. Never. Chance is a part of everything, people just choose to put a greater focus on it when they can't ignore it.

Ehh....You know I'll admit I'm not a woman but I have a really hard time agreeing with you on this one particular item. Maybe I grew up in an exceptional family with strong women and a different view, but most of the women I know wouldn't let something like that stop them from enjoying a event they were interested in. I mean, sexy women in long dresses and outfits? If that turned women off from playing poker, then shouldn't the same thing turn women off from going to Vegas shows? Or watching Olympic Volleyball? Or Gymnastics? I mean, granted the objective of those outfits is not sexual, but you can't deny that those clothes leave little to the imagination. Intentional or not, they are a celebration of the female form: One for athletics, the other for attention.

Besides, if the sight of a woman in a dress with a slit is going to put them off from playing poker, wouldn't the intense competition and pressure for a pot put them off from it as well? I'm sorry, but I don't think the women of today are that fragile, mentally or socially. They're tougher than that.

I do agree that there are odd barriers keeping women from coming to the table in droves, and no I don't have an answer for that problem. It's a very complex, long, and enter-twined discussion that probably deals things I need more of an education on. But vapid tarts in fancy dresses with slits up the side keeping women from coming to play poker? That's like arguing that the girl who came to prom in a slimmer outfit than you did is keeping you from enjoying your evening. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Honestly? Yeah, it's sexist, but it doesn't really raise any ire in me whatsoever.

Poker is a very male dominated industry. Men like looking at hot women. Hot women sell stuff (and not just poker). Ergo if people want to try to sell stuff, especially to guys, they are going to use hot women.

I think this is much more of a broad cultural issue than anything specific to poker. I tend to just not notice it anymore. Oh look another hot chick selling a product with her body. Ho hum.

Given that numbers have dropped off in the WPT events, I'm not 100 per cent sure it's even working as a marketing concept (Though it could be argued that fish have dropped off due to the recession and perhaps some 'new' fish are now playing these events in part because they like the girls and the bar etc.)

I'm no fan of promo girls in any industry TBH but I understand from a marketing perspective they make good business sense.

There are plenty of other events that don't have promo girls that women aren't flocking to either, so I'm not convinced that that reason specifically is a valid one.

Barry Greenstein nailed the reason before Black Friday. When asked why he wasn't doing commercials for PS while Isabelle Mercier was, he pointed out, "Their target audience is 18-25 year old men. When it becomes 50+ year old men, then I'll do a commercial." They have decided that they attract more 18-25 year old men than they repeal people like yourself. It isn't a good reason, but they aren't broadcasting for the good of the game. They are trying to get ratings.

FWIW, I haven't watched a WPT event broadcast in years.

Basically this. Obviously to even the playing field, the "Royal Flush" girls are likely bad. However, to increase the interest of poker overall, they likely have a marginal effect since poker is still male dominated. Also I feel that women will generally have less of an issue with pretty women celebrating a victory around them than men would when muscular men celebrate around them. Straight men tend to be less open about sexuality generally. But as a straight man, I would have no problem being surrounded by hot men if it led me to be a WPT champion!

tbh, this basically makes me dismiss the entirety of the rest of your post because it just screams "i'm a judgmental ******* and like putting people in itty bitty boxes in exactly the same way that i'm claiming to be against in the rest of my statement."

I admit I could have worded the "social bar" statement better, sorry if it came across judgmental. I actually hate it because when you watch it on TV you see these poor guys trying to talk to these hot girls who are sitting there looking like they'd rather be anywhere but there. Watch the girls faces sometimes, more often or not they look like they aren't paying one bit of attention to the guys talking to them unless it happens to be some hot pro, which more often than not it isn't. They're sitting there looking bored at best or rolling their eyes at worst.

WSOP doesn't use hot girls to promote their brand, not to any obvious extent anyway, and the WSOPC and WSOP bring outs way more players than any of the WPT events. I just don't think it's doing that much good for WPT.

I have no idea why I find it so annoying tbh, I normally don't have any issue with things like this.

That's incredibly sexist (and so is thinking pornography is fine and clothed titilation is not). I've talked to a few royal flush girls at events and they were all cool and none of them thought they were "hot girls" trying to be talked to by "poor guys." You assume because they are attractive and you think the people they talk to are unattractive that 1. the guys are always hitting on them 100% of the time and 2. they don't want to talk to people (which is their job and the job that they applied for). The problem isn't the girls. The problem is you.

e: also you only see them on TV at the end of the tournament when they've all been there for at least a week and probably all day that day. maybe they are just tired instead of internally cursing their lives and wishing that a hotter man was talking to them. Thats cool too how they wouldnt be bored if the guy was hot.

Wow, I googled them and they are quite stunning. Can there be Royal Flush Boys too for when a woman wins and they all crowd around her? I plan on winning just for the photo

That is not being sexist, and I'm sure you have a point about them being tired since it is the end of the tournament. I don't have a problem with the girls, they have a great job and they're very attractive. What girl their age wouldn't want to travel around the world and just look pretty and get paid for it. I have a problem with the marketing concept, I have a problem with way Mike and Vince talk about them. I have a problem with WPT making poker less attractive to women through the use of these girls.

I don't think the guys are hitting on them and I don't think they look bored on purpose, as you say they've been at it for days by the time the FT is being filmed. I just don't care for the whole concept. As I said I'm not even 100% sure why it bothers me so much but I just don't like it. That's part of the reason I made this thread to see how others feel about the concept.

I think it's probably harder for a guy to see it same way a woman may see it. After all young guys are the target audience. I mean no disrespect to anyone who sits at the social bar talking to the girls, I was just stating the way I see it when watching.

As for porn and such, I don't have to watch it but I don't have a right to tell others they can't. I enjoy watching the WPT final tables and I just wish they'd get past using such a sexist and imo antiquated marketing concept. I just feel it does more to hold poker back than help it move forward. I honestly doubt it really does much for the WPT really.

I'm torn on this.

On the one hand, I can understand that it is a commercial decision. It's in the organisers' best interests to appeal to their target market and bring more traffic in.

On the other hand, yes it does make me slightly uneasy for some of the reasons OP mentioned. It preserves the 'boys club' atmosphere in poker which is so offputting to tons of women who might otherwise be open to playing. Even for the majority of women who actually play it is still something that has to be actively tolerated.

It doesn't quite sit right with me... but at the same time I can understand why it happens, and I can't see it changing anytime soon.

If you're sick of the royal flush girls you should also be sick of most of the other women who are on tv, in magazines, and who are in the entertainment industry. The whole entertainment industry is racist and sexist but obviously women and minorities are buying into it in droves.

Jesus, please don't say this. Every time someone uses this statement, or a statement like it in an argument or discussion you have made it nigh impossible to continue having a serious discussion and your credibility is shot to all hell. How would you feel if I said, "Well it's hard for you to see it the way I do, you're a woman." I don't need to be a woman to hate the concept of the Royal Flush Girls. If you notice from my first post, I mentioned that at the outset I hated the idea of the RFG while my wife thought they were fine. Does that mean I'm any less of a guy because I agreed with you on the outset? Does that mean my wife is any less of a woman because she saw it differently?

I do want to continue this discussion with you, because the representation of women in poker is a very serious issue and something that is very near and dear to my heart. However these kinds of "You're a man you have a hard time understanding" statements? They don't help anyone, and they're not true.

Although I don't mind the tradition of have hot women carrying out the money when the final table is down to two players, seeing the RFGs sitting alongside poker players during the action just looks incredibly sad and lame.

I don't mean that lots of men don't get it, I know a few who see the RFGs the same way I do and I know women who have no issue with them. So I guess I should say it's hard for some people to understand.

I've tried to figure out from the first time I saw them why they bug me so much and honestly I just don't know why. I guess it's just for the reasons I've stated here but other similar things in poker haven't really bothered me at all.

I just want to see more women playing poker and playing it seriously and more women playing WSOP and WPT main events and I fear things like this will put them off.

FWIW I'm not a big fan of ladies games as I feel can keep women from venturing into open field events but on the other hand I think in many cases they form a good bridge to get women into poker.

It's not the sexy or even 1/2 naked I mind it's the whole poker is a men's game thing that makes me sick of the RFG concept. I'm pretty sure I made that clear.

Its television, entertainment. The WPT is not keeping women down. The WPT is televised usually on the sports channel. The WPTs goal is to make money by having a large audience so that they can charge more money for advertising slots. You cant kill a weed unless you kill the root. Look at what youre saying. Its almost contradictory.

Yeah I get it and I don't get why it bugs me, as I've said many times, but it does. I think this post has helped me understand it and get it over a bit though. Even though some women might find it objectionable and off putting I'm sure it brings plenty of guys to the game and that's what we all want, more inexperienced players to pay us, right?

Life is objectionable