Utah and New Mexico this week! Yay for progress.

The Utah's judge ruling seemed really strong and was based on the Inter-racial marriage ruling from 1967, seems like if it is up-held will make it exceptionally easy for 2014 to add many more states to having gay marriage (maybe all of them?).

http://www.scribd.com/doc/192781988/2-13-cv-00217-90

Some of the more important pieces:

"...Applying the law as it is required to do, the court holds that Utah’s prohibition on same-sex marriage conflicts with the United States Constitution’s guarantees of equal protection anddue process under the law. The State’s current laws deny its gay and lesbian citizens their fundamental right to marry and, in so doing, demean the dignity of these same-sex couples for norational reason. Accordingly, the court finds that these laws are unconstitutional. ...

...The court does not find the State’s argument compelling because, however persuasive the ability to procreate might be in the context of a particular religious perspective, it is not a defining characteristic of conjugal relationships from a legal and constitutional point of view. The State’s position demeans the dignity not just of same-sex couples, but of the many opposite-sex couples who are unable to reproduce or who choose not to have children. Under the State’s reasoning, a post-menopausal woman or infertile man does not have a fundamental right to marry because she or he does not have the capacity to procreate. This proposition is irreconcilable with the right to liberty that the Constitution guarantees to all citizens. ...

...The State’s second argument is that the Plaintiffs are really seeking a new right, not access to an existing right. ....But the Supreme Court did not adopt this line of reasoning in the analogous case of Loving v. Virginia,388 U.S. 1 (1967). Instead of declaring a new right to interracial marriage, the Court held that individuals could not be restricted from exercising their existing right to marry on account of the race of their chosen partner. ...The alleged right to same-sex marriage that the State claims the Plaintiffs are seeking is simply the same right that is currently enjoyed by heterosexual individuals: the right to make a public commitment to form an exclusive relationship and create a family with a partner with whom the person shares an intimate and sustaining emotional bond. ..."

Decision then assessed and denounced the state's rational arguments one-by-one: "Responsible Procreation," "Optimal Child-Rearing," "Proceeding with Caution [on expanding rights]," "Preserving the Traditional Definition of Marriage." -- "In its briefing and at oral argument, the State was unable to articulate a specific connection between its prohibition of same-sex marriage and any of its stated legitimate interests."

"...Plaintiffs Karen Archer and Kate Call contend that their rights to due process and equal protection are further infringed by the State’s refusal to recognize their marriage that was validly performed in Iowa. The court’s disposition of the other issues in this lawsuit renders this question moot. Utah’s current laws violate the rights of same-sex couples who were married elsewhere not because they discriminate against a subsection of same-sex couples in Utah who were validly married in another state, but because they discriminate against all same-sex couples in Utah."
--U.S. District Judge Robert J. Shelby

Would just like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays

Likewise!

Hope everyone has a wonderful holiday period!

Because it's Christmas and it's pretty standard to think about these things during the holidays...

Am I the only one conflicted about how people can be LGBT and Christian at the same time? I feel no desire to conform to religion for a bunch of reasons, but the bible putting in a bunch of speech that people to this day still use to discriminate really just rubs me the wrong way. It's not 100% why I lean toward agnostic but it doesn't help anything for sure

I'm not religious but really don't see the conflict. Some Christians do use the bible to try and bring others down and some are very loving people, you mostly hear about the bigots though. I knew a guy who's dad is a pastor at a church and has his son bring over his gay friends who didn't have family over for the holidays. I guess it would be a big turn off for LGBT people going to a catholic mass and hearing how they are sinning and going to hell but there are lots of gay friendly churches as well.

I guess in the same way you can consider yourself a Christian while still wearing clothes made of more than one material, or eating shellfish, or failing to kill children who disobey their parents.

I think the breed of Christianity that promotes homophobia is dying with age and isn't really worth fighting, and not worth joining, because they aren't changing. I think that a much smarter, more liberal form of Christianity will evolve soon and the anti gay sentiment will become very marginalized. I hope it will evolve from who's going to heaven/hell to a group of people who commit to doing good deeds for one another regardless of what you believe. If organized Christianity can do this without judging, I might be open to it again.

To this end - see recent statements by the Pope.

Still don't see it - utterly amazed by how anyone right-thinking or living any sort of liberal lifestyle could believe in a monotheistic religion

Besides being gay, I'm also very liberal, and I'm also Jewish (and not just culturally, I do believe to some degree). I know it's not quite the same as in the US at least, it seems that the anti-gay community is mostly Christian and not so Jewish, but we were the ones to make gay sex punishable by death thousands of years before Jesus was even born.

And yet, I don't see the conflict. I think that for those like me, we look to religion as more of a big picture thing, focusing on the overarching messages of the religious teachings. The details that were written thousands of years ago aren't as important to us. We allow the religion to evolve with society, as anything that's going to survive must.

Thats not religion then, thats faith

I express my faith through the Jewish religion, therefore it is religion.

Gangsta, show us your jewfro!

Eh, I can't My hair doesn't jewfro, it just gets a really annoying wave in the middle when it gets long. I did post a pic of myself in this thread a year ago, however: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=614

Have you started dating and stuff yet?

You should, I think you're good looking, even sans jewfro.

Yes, my friends sat me down and put together an okcupid profile for me. I had several dates that just weren't a good fit, and a couple that I thought were going much better than the other guy thought, apparently.

Then, 5 months ago I met up with another guy. He took a few dates to really grow on me, but I'm really glad I gave him the time because now we're boyfriends. He's basically moved in with me, and things are going great. Just have to figure out how to fill in the family, now.

thanks, my bf agrees. Though I think he's the better looking one. I think it works well when both parties think they've made the better catch.

I hope everyone has a fabulous 2014!

Yep. Happy new year.

Awesome stories like this make me very happy!

I'm imagining you reacted like the guy in your avatar

Congratulations.

I just meet someone from online this past week and we had a really good time together and I'm looking forward to seeing him again so I'm pretty excited about that. Kind of funny how just a little while ago I posted on here saying how I was having trouble meeting people and was pretty down about it. We only just meet so who knows what's going to happen but it's a step in the right direction for me.

Nice, I hope it goes well!

Can I ask you guys an opinion on something, just to see whether I overreacted?

I don't feel I did, but need to know whether I was too sensitive about things.

There was a post made where a member (This was not on 2+2 I hasten to add) made a remark that he was colour coding players on Stars, who took a certain action, '...with Pink, and why Pink? Cos there gay lol...'

That is not verbatim what was said, as I don't want to copy from the other site, and be given another warning for quoting someone here, the context remains the same.

To me, he was clearly saying that the action these players took was weak and/or stupid, so I took exception because this lazy and mindless language is clearly hurtful to many, myself included.

I responded with, and these are my words, so I think I am ok to rethink my thoughts here:

I was rebuked for my comment as I had been insulting to the other member.

Was I wrong in what I wrote? Was I too sensitive to the comment? Either way, I really cant see that my comments back to the person contained an insult anywhere. Or that they were not constructive.

If this shouldnt be posted here please feel free to delete it. Otherwise, I appreciate opinions.

Na, you were def not out of line.

Sounds like the guy was being homophobic, and the mod is as well for defending him.