I have never seen a woman being treated with anything less than full respect, almost reverence, in the live games I play.

Then again, I never saw a woman being aggressive or annoying to other players at the table.

About 2% of the players are females in these games.

I know I actually don't belong in this section of the forums at all and I didn't read any of the replies, but thought I had some perspective to offer up to the OP.

Whenever a guy refers to another guy as a *** or ****** or anything like that, 95+% of the time it actually isn't meant as a derogatory term to a gay man. It's an insult directed towards a straight man, usually an attempt to take away his manhood. This is why Elton John can be gay and be great friends with Eminem who uses words like ***. Em just isn't making references to gay men at all.

If I were you I just wouldn't see any reason to acknowledge it all.

Just to be clear, I wasn't implying in any way that what the guy said was okay.

Only that it likely wasn't directed at you based on your sexual preference, so you shouldn't take it personally.

This is very true, while I don't support people using words like "gay" or "******ed" as apart of their slang vocabulary, they still do. Ofc, when someone directly calls you a F*****, thats going a little too far. I feel like most decent people in our generation at least wont use racial slurs or call a woman a derogatory name at the poker table, but a few people dont see homophobic slurs as the same.

I agree with Marshall, I wouldnt acknowledge it if you are like me, and just dont want to get into an agruement with a stranger. However, if its something that you feel really strongly about, you should speak up imo. People arent going to stop using homophobic remarks in public unless someone tells them they are wrong. In all honesty, if there are a lot of younger people at the table, someone will probably chime in and back you up (esp if shes a female )

OK, my bad, I didn't understand what you were "really" saying. Maybe because I don't like sugarcoating n***** or f**** by referring to them as the "n" word or "f" word.

all is fair at a real poker table. You need to get used to it if you want to be the game. give as good as you get

I'm a heterosexual man, so I'm not sure if merely disagreeing with ***** and feminist types is crossing the line around here. I'll take the risk.

Dear friend, the poker room is one of the last havens of testosterone on earth. It is one of the few places that are patronized mainly by heterosexual men, and where a man can hope to be himself and not have to sugarcoat everything he says and does. "a f-word play" is pretty standard language for the poker room. If this makes you too uncomfortable, please find a different hobby or play online with chat turned off.

You won't see me join a men's figure skating team and complain that the guys are looking at my butt.

Have a fabulous week.

amen

Would it be less enjoyable if people treated each other decent? All OP and others are asking, is that people DONT cross the line, I dont see how that would make the game less enjoyable for anyone.

Although your analogy makes the point, you do have a right to join a figure skating team, free of sexual harassment.

I dont remember a time I was in a public place and thought "you know it would be so much better if someone got called a ******"

I think the point is hes saying that one of the necessary qualities of being able to play live poker, is you have to have a thick skin. Calling someone a *** is kinda low but I mean I play canadian live poker and we rarely have any issues at the table its mostly rednecks saying f*** these cards im so unlucky yarrrr **** ****kity **** and 99% of the time never directly attacking someone.

Life is not a good place, its just the way it is, you can either choose to ignore the comments and fight back in a way that maxes your profit or you can choose to be disturbed by it, ignorant people gunna ignorant people and it will never stop.

If its a really bad verbal assault then call the floor or something but remember its usually the massive fish that are doing it, other than that, suck it up its only words

All we're talking about here is trash-talking. It's the EXACT same thing that happens on every field, court, or rink. It's simply a tactic to put you on tilt and disrupt your focus. If you let it work, you lose. Even if you're RIGHT to be angry, you're still WRONG.

You can negate that edge by tattling. Just call the floor and make the guy shut up. Problem solved, sort of. The fact is he WON'T shut up, he'll just keep making comments, but keep them thinly veiled. At worst, he irks you out of your A game. At best, you react and end up paying the price.

The fact is, it works. I've seen it a MILLION times, and I'm sure you have too. Dude A criticizes another Dude B, then Dude B tilts.

In any competitive situation, there is an EDGE if you can play head games with your opponent.

Want proof? Go look on youtube for videos of Brad Marchand playing in the most recent Stanley Cup Finals. Then go look up how many goals Henrik Sedin scored.

^ Exactly. It's a part of the game. Just 50+ years ago people were getting shot for check raising haha. I mean it's all tactics, you have to have a thick skin. I'm a big fan of the NBA and now they have it so the players can't talk trash to each other. That's ridiculous, getting into ones head is an art and ignoring it is equally important. Cheers.

I'm fairly certain that there can and should be a line drawn between trash talk and hate speech.

Saying stuff like, "Damn, I'm just owning you tonight, why don't you quit poker you suck!" is trash talk. If it gives you an edge, it seems kinda low to me but w/e, I wouldn't complain about it even if it was aimed at me.

Saying stuff like, "Damn, I hate ****ing f*****," or "****ing ****s like you should be taken out into the parking lot and raped", that's not trash talk. That's hate speech. See the difference?

Doubt we should get into an endless debate (what about if I say this? Is that just trash talk?) and everyone's line is probably going to be a little different, but there are specific words and phrases that cross the line, IMO, and should be "banned", if not legally than via societal condemnation.

Oh, but wait, it's just guys being guys? And you poor men don't have anywhere else you can do that anymore? No other arenas except those lonely bastions of male freedom, the poker room? Not every other male dominated career field and hobby and sporting event and every other place where mostly just men congregate?

My bad. Excuse us ladies for intruding on your one shining beacon of male freedom and independence.

Don't you think you're overreacting...just a little?

Look, it's 2011, and people have come a LONG way from the times when women couldn't vote, gays were kept in the closet, and Africans harvested tobacco. Now, hundreds of years later, whoever is still prejudice against homosexuals isn't going to have his mind changed by one outraged gay person.

Long story short, whoever still harbors these prejudices today, isn't going to be changed, ever. All we can hope for is that future generations will gradually become more and more tolerant. And I think that history has proven that that is the case.

In the meantime, the only way to stop that kind of thing from happening is to stand up to it. If someone is going to call you a ******, and you just sit there shaking, then you're just going to reinforce the prejudice person's behavior. His goal is to hurt you, put you on tilt, and intimidate you. Apparently, in this case, it worked.

Try standing up for yourself. Let him know that you won't stand for that, and that he's out of line. You dont' have to get nasty or even confrontational. And you'll probably find that the consensus at the table is in your corner.

Saying that there needs to be a line drawn, or that this kind of speech should be 'banned' either legally or socially, is simply a cop out. That's just putting your problems on the rest of the world so you can whine when things don't go your way.

If you want that line drawn, then draw it. Stand up for yourself and make sure your peers know exactly what will and will not be tolerated. You have an identity, and a voice, and it deserves respect. So use it.

But if you're going to crawl into your shell like a shivering wimp, then don't be surprised when people don't respect you.

Clearly you didn't read the whole thread, since I advocated speaking up for yourself (as long as safety isn't an issue) multiple times.

But you say a lot about yourself if you believe that the average person is going to lack respect for the attacked gay man or woman at the poker table, even if they do keep silent for whatever reason, rather than for the loud mouthed douchebag spewing garbage.

And where did I say anything about this being 100 years ago when women and blacks couldn't vote? All I did was (sarcastically) point out the fallacy of the "men being men and we don't have very many places left where we can be ourselves so let us say whatever we want at the poker table" argument, which is ridiculous on its face. There are plenty of places where men can be men - I don't know if you all realized this, but most of the power structure the US and the world is still heavily dominated by men. Men have plenty of opportunities to "be themselves". Asking them not to comment on my breasts or call a gay man a f***** shouldn't be that much of a hamper on their manliness.

Not to mention the fact that only 50 or 60 years ago, men would chide other men for being so disrespectful as to even swear in front of women. So "men being men" means what society in general wants it to mean - at one time, men being men included wearing muttonchops - so if society in general decides that it isn't acceptable for straight men to call gay men f*****, that's what will happen. Which is exactly what I was arguing for by saying everyone, including the plenty of straight men who find such attacks obnoxious as well, should speak up when they hear it.

I don't understand what's so ****ing difficult about not attacking others verbally, or making blatantly inappropriate or offensive comments. That's not men being men, or the PC police being too uptight, it's just common courtesy. Anyone who has ever played sports, or who just has some common sense, can recognize good natured trash talk and verbal personal attacks.

Unfortunately those people who are offenders in these situations are typically pretty bad players so for the good of the game it's usually best to grit your teeth, forget about it and take his money.

Unfortunate, but so true. And even though it sounds like it was directed at OP for his orientation based by his description, the fact that ***/gay has gained more idiomatic usage in the last couple of years hasn't helped matters. If the douche said about the result, "That's so gay!" I'd agree with him!

Maybe OP should have stood up for himself, but combating the table donator is risky as you never want to piss him off enough to leave. Since he's a live newb, nothing wrong with a freeze here. The last time a drunk idiot made fun of me, I shut my mouth because I didn't want him to leave by any irritated response by myself. Unfortunately, he still won at the table, even though he sucked.

grunching

villain: "What a ***** play!"

hero: "I know right? I mean, I just bent you over the table and had my way with you...RIGHT IN FRONT OF EVERYONE!"

I'm 98% sure his comment was directed at you because you're gay. I've never heard of any gay references like that at the poker table before. Sorry it happened to you. Just try not to let people of that mental quality get to you. There are many of them and if you let them push your buttons too much you'll be more miserable than necessary.

"Disagree."

"Circle gets the square." *DING*

Many people are raised with unreasonable prejudices, yet are able to eventually overcome them later in life. I'm one of them. Granted, the needling comment I suggested wouldn't help alleviate any prejudice or hate but it is a curable condition.

Duck posted about making that conscious decision with Men the Master. Obviously if you can shrug it off and do that, it's a plus EV decision monetarily. OP talked about being mentally shaken up by this, though, and may have been more on his game if he had opted to speak up instead. But that's a personal, on the spot decision, and it's kind of hard to know what one would do in a future situation when the dynamics might very well be different.

Love the last one-liner response, BTW.

It's strange to me that you guys have no problem whatsoever playing a game where by simple osmosis you're taking money from people who have no right losing several hundred dollars a week or a month or whatever but it's a big deal when someone calls you a bad word or tries to hurt your feelings. If you're a recreational player, you have to weigh in this when you're deciding if it's worth it to play poker with a bunch of idiots because despite prevention and punishment for doing what they're doing, there's going to be a line of people outside trying to get in who are just going to do the same thing. And if you're a professional player, letting someone get under your skin like this is ridiculous when you have to be an emotional black hole in this business.

That said, we are all human and it's hard not to feel bad when we get insulted. Other people at the table aren't agreeing with them though, and it's usually just an outlier who causes the problem.

I mean this with all due respect, but there is an absurd amount of verbal harassment and insults dealt out at a poker table and not all of it is to women and gay people and not all of it is manly testosterone bull****. Probably over 99% of it is done from one straight dude to another straight dude. Most of those guys have learned to let it go and if you are wanting to just be another poker player and not just a woman or a gay guy playing poker you're going to have to learn to do it too. Reading all the stories about all the extra stuff women have to deal with reads like all the standard BS I have to deal with too.

Well, you are one weird dude.

Seriously though, never understood Lederer calling you that.

I was 19. All 19 year old kids are weird.

Actually, Howard did not blame your weirdness on your youth.

I don't agree about the crap about the "male sanctity of the poker room" it's complete bull****.

However, it seems like most all of you either disregarded or just misunderstood my post.

This stuff you are calling "hate" isn't even directed at you as a person and is 95% of the time not any type of attack on you as a person at all.

In any case, the types of people who are capable of actually making these kinds of attacks are so pathetic that it's not even worth taking the time of day to be bothered by some idiotic comments they make.

Let it go and move on!

I think that most people have come to accept that most poker players are men, and that a lot of the time, yes, the behavior you are talking about will happen. I agree that you need to have a thick skin for this type of thing, but I do think there is a common sense/respect line that should not be crossed.