PokerStove's top x% is not entirely accurate. Thoughts on fine-tuning this range?

(1) Top 41%:
-Stove:44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K 7o+,Q8o+,J8o+,T8o+

-Me: 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T8s+,A2o+,K4o+,Q8o+,J9o+

(2) Top 78%:
-Stove:22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,82s+,73s+, 63s+,52s+,43s,A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J4o+,T5o+,95o+,85o+,7 5o+,65o

-Me:22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,82s+,73s+,64s +,54s,A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J2o+,T4o+,95o+,85o+,76o

whats this for?? for a good HU range?

depends on villain and the situation you want to analyze. a 3betting range deep for example might look different than a 3bet shoving range shallow because of playability considerations.

Just fine tune the range for each specific situation. Would be more work, but it becomes easier with time and practice.

[x] talking as if I do any work analyzing ranges when I obv don't

Not sure it's fair to call it an inaccuracy. What you've stumbled on is the difference between ranges based on aipf hot-and-cold equities and real world range compositions. This is essentially why, even with a huge sample size, you can't rely on your HUD to tell you the whole story about a player.

A similar point is that you can play around w/ your range composition as a way of manipulating your opponents. We actually talk about this kind of stuff all the time, but it's perhaps disguised by more general terminology.

To specify, I'm not trying to come up with a range for villains as much as for certain critical points in a ST game that I can eyeball for a general idea of how to proceed (not to follow exactly of course)..i.e. 41% is a generally good range to call a shove at 10bb, 78% is generally good to open-shove at 5bb...the most important one is top 65% (for open-shove at 10bb and calling at 5bb - similar to Nash) and Genher helped me fine-tune that one. Just wondering if my fine-tuning of this top 41% and top 78% ranges (against typical opponent) is fine.

themuppets: Stove's eq. calc. is not meant for HU, therefore the inaccuracy.

@ 10 BBs Nash shoves 58% and calls 37%. @ 5 BBs Nash shoves 72% and calls 62%. I have no idea where you percentages are coming from?

Nash's ranges @ 5 BBs are +EV so I wouldn't mess with them. The only reason for altering your shoving and calling range @ 10 BBs in this way is that you believe that villain is both calling too tight and shoving too wide.

I'm pretty sure aipf, equity-based rankings are constant regardless of the number of opponents. They only appear to be inaccurate if you assume the Stove rankings are based in part or in whole on other factors, which they are not.

I said 'similar', not identical..

Nash is def. +EV up to 8bb but I don't use it at all. I use it's figures to find more optimal lines against different opponents...that's where I'm coming up with some of these percentages, to find more suited shove-calling ranges for std. players (typical) at my level really, or at least I hope -> this is all trial-and-error on my part until I find a sweet spot so feel free to tell me if u think it's wrong.

So I guess I was wrong about this. From the PokerStove Web site:

So after figuring that out, I found a program called Slice which I used to determine the following for HU aipf, equity-based ranges:

41%:

33-AA, A"K-2"{RB}, K"Q-4"{RB}, Q"J-8"{RB}, J"T-9"{RB}, [A"K-2"], [K"Q-2"], [Q"J-5"], [J"T-7"], [T"9-8"]


78%:

22-AA, A"K-2"{RB}, K"Q-2"{RB}, Q"J-2"{RB}, J"T-4"{RB}, T"9-5"{RB}, 9"8-5"{RB}, 8"7-5"{RB}, 7"6-5"{RB}, [6]5, [A"K-2"], [K"Q-2"], [Q"J-2"], [J"T-2"], [T"9-2"], [9"8-2"], [8"7-2"], [7"6-3"], [6"5-3"], [5"4-2"], [43]

Unfortunately, the notation is somewhat different than what we're used to. The brackets [like this] are the suited hands, the naked ones with the {RB} notations are the offsuit (rainbow) ones.

I think my point about range composition is still valid, but you are correct in saying Stove's ranges are an inaccurate guide to HU aipf hot-and-cold equity rankings.

^^ Yeah, Mers, rypac, insane_steve and others have discussed Stove's equity slider problems for HU in some of their threads so check them out.

I haven't heard of slice. But is it accurate for HU? I'll check it out.

It actually gives you several options for range selection, one of which is specifically for HU.

I don't understand why you would deviate from Nash 8bbs and less. Sure sometimes you play someone that only will call a shove with Ax, pocket pairs and strong broadways and you can literally shove any two cards but otherwise I don't get what you are trying to do.

Widening your calling range means you are losing equity to someone shoving Nash or tighter. I think a better use of time would be determining shove-calling ranges at different stack depths against loose, normal and tight calling ranges and various opening percentages. Mucking about with ranges 8 bbs or less seems pointless. I could be missing something.

@ the muppets

Thanks for the Slice tip btw.

@themuppets: yeah, thx. for the slice tip and the range. Good find!!!

@yertleturtle: I agree about open-shoving ranges @ <8bb for Nash (or S-C or whatever), no need to waste time doing any extra work there. Here are my issues:
(1) I don't trust Nash's calling range. Some people are divided over that. Is it accurate for <8bb?
(2) I'm very much interested in >8bb open-shove ranges, say at 30bb, 50bb, 75bb...this is to get a grasp for how different hands fare at different eff. stack-sizes.