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Old 08-22-2010, 09:20 PM   #1
zachaser
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Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Reads: Villain shoved all in first hand, has been unremarkable postflop. This is the tenth hand. Do you call here given reads or fold and find a better spot?

Poker Stars $5.00+$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): t1570 78.50 BBs
BTN/SB: t1430 71.50 BBs

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is BB with A J
BTN/SB raises to t40, Hero raises to t140, BTN/SB raises to t1430 all in
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:25 PM   #2
Tortured Existence
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

snap it
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:35 PM   #3
sir_nemo
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Call. I've ran into quite a few maniacal players at these stakes and they're shoving any A here, even just broadway cards. You're ahead quite a bit(based on my personal experience).
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:39 PM   #4
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

meh, considering that you probably have a huge edge over the kind of guy that shoves light enough here to make this a call I think theres a decent argument for folding.

I call in game though, ATo I probably fold
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:07 PM   #5
BetMagicMoney
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raziel26 View Post
meh, considering that you probably have a huge edge over the kind of guy that shoves light enough here to make this a call I think theres a decent argument for folding.

I call in game though, ATo I probably fold
I fall into the group that folds this!
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:26 AM   #6
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

I'd fold that. Lack of evidence.
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:42 AM   #7
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

wtf

have the $5 games changed that much?

AJ is the nuts pre at this level, plus villain openshoved first hand?

SNAPPPPPPP calllll
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:54 AM   #8
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

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Originally Posted by BetMagicMoney View Post
I fall into the group that folds this!
We're NITs prob...
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:11 AM   #9
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

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Originally Posted by Raziel26 View Post
meh, considering that you probably have a huge edge over the kind of guy that shoves light enough here to make this a call I think theres a decent argument for folding.

I call in game though, ATo I probably fold
the edge argument is ridiculous

how difficult do you think it'll be to get another game vs a drooler of said calibre at the 5s?
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:23 AM   #10
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

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Originally Posted by Raziel26 View Post
meh, considering that you probably have a huge edge over the kind of guy that shoves light enough here to make this a call I think theres a decent argument for folding.

I call in game though, ATo I probably fold
if villain is shoving the standard wide range of a $5 spewtards, you already do have a huge edge with AJ vs that range
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:28 AM   #11
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

How is the edge argument ridiculous? Say your standard winrate in these games is 60%, he needs to be shoving 22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q6s+,J7s+,T8s+,A2o+,K7o+,Q7o+,J8o+,T 8o+ to make this call profitable the first hand.
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:35 AM   #12
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

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Originally Posted by Raziel26 View Post
How is the edge argument ridiculous? Say your standard winrate in these games is 60%, he needs to be shoving 22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q6s+,J7s+,T8s+,A2o+,K7o+,Q7o+,J8o+,T 8o+ to make this call profitable the first hand.
just because your average winrate is 60% doesn't mean taking a 53% in the beginning unprofitable because gasp you can signup for another game!!!!!!!!!!

the only time the edge argument has validity is when you are playing cash vs a hit and runner, or you only play 1k+ husng's and a big fish sits you

Last edited by Tortured Existence; 08-23-2010 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 08-23-2010, 05:23 AM   #13
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Re-reading my post, profitable was the wrong word to use. Clearly calling all in the first hand with a 53% hand vs his range is going to be profitable, but my point was that it isn't going to be optimal.
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Old 08-23-2010, 05:25 AM   #14
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Even i can call Ur 3bet size is awkward and maniac thinks he has so mutch FE.
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:04 AM   #15
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

snap , and gogogo hourly rate
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:09 AM   #16
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Optimal is calling and then opening a new game against another $5 donk 5 seconds later
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:21 AM   #17
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Fist pump snap call at 5 $ after he already shoved once.
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:09 AM   #18
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

snap
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:40 AM   #19
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Fistpump snap call imo.
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:52 AM   #20
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raziel26 View Post
Re-reading my post, profitable was the wrong word to use. Clearly calling all in the first hand with a 53% hand vs his range is going to be profitable, but my point was that it isn't going to be optimal.
you don't want to maximize your winrate, but your hourly. search the forum for more about this if you are still not convinced, there are also calculations on how much of an edge you would need to make an early all in better than passing that edge.
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:59 AM   #21
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Call, but only because the villain open-shoved the first hand and hasn't seemed good post-flop. If he'd been playing normally up until now I'd fold this fairly easily.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:29 AM   #22
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

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Originally Posted by ohly View Post
you don't want to maximize your winrate, but your hourly. search the forum for more about this if you are still not convinced, there are also calculations on how much of an edge you would need to make an early all in better than passing that edge.
+1 i used to be in the 'i dont want to flip with this idiot camp' but really having a 55% edge in the first minute is huge! even against the biggest droolers.

hourly rate>>>>ROI
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:10 PM   #23
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

i think fold, i might get him within next few minutes anyway.
i wouldnt take coinflip either. i know hourly rate but i can open another table on the side and play abc against this villain.
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:26 PM   #24
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Ok comprehension fail. Didn't see that he open jammed first hand, thought this was the first hand.

I snap then
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:21 PM   #25
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Re: Too thin early or ok call? 5.25 Stars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woji View Post
I'd fold that. Lack of evidence.
I tend to agree if the goal is to optimize win rate (not hourly rate). First of all, if he really is shoving with a wide range, then it'll be easy for you to trap him with an even better hand. If not, you could be dominated. I don't think ten hands is enough evidence to be able to assume he has a wide shoving range. His open shove on the first hand could have been intended so that you would call off this second shove lightly.

In any case, if your read is right, then it would be easy to pick a spot where you have him dominated. I think there are better spots and you'd still have plenty of chips left to exploit his mistakes if your read is correct, and if it was incorrect, then you could be the one that's dominated.

Then again I might just be a nit. However, I also agree with this:

Quote:
you don't want to maximize your winrate, but your hourly. search the forum for more about this if you are still not convinced, there are also calculations on how much of an edge you would need to make an early all in better than passing that edge.
I multitable for similar reasons. For win rates, I find personally that these $5 HU SNGs are best played by exploiting post-flop mistakes. The opponents there can be quite easy to exploit in this way and it's not out of the question to get something like 80% win rate this way even if it's not optimal from an hourly rate standpoint (sometimes my games last as long as an hour so I don't make so much and playing these faster is probably much better).

Last edited by newbie3d; 08-23-2010 at 02:36 PM.
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