Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Can't bring myself to shove wide/nash when effectives are shallow Can't bring myself to shove wide/nash when effectives are shallow

03-20-2017 , 10:34 AM
So a while ago I was told 6BB or less you can pretty much use nash, but it just seems wrong to me to be shoving something like 87o, it kinda seems like id be better to lose a blind because it's greater than a 50% chance my next hand will be stronger.
Can't bring myself to shove wide/nash when effectives are shallow Quote
03-20-2017 , 11:17 AM
If your goal is to make the most money, you'll make profitable shoves. The ranges aren't "wrong" in any way--they are the GTO solution to push/fold play from SB. They're very good.

If your goal is to have fun and feel comfortable, then go ahead and fold hands that make you uncomfortable nothing wrong with it, as long as you're not deluding yourself into thinking that it's the maxEV option and realize you're passing up on some money (sometimes quite a bit) to have more fun and be more happy.
Can't bring myself to shove wide/nash when effectives are shallow Quote
03-20-2017 , 11:50 AM
http://www.holdemresources.net/h/poker-theory/hune.html - the calling refers to BB? Is that proven game theory?
I will start following it closely. But what would be your response my statement you are more likely to improve your hand after losing 1BB, is there a way to answer that without assumption (that I believe btw) the nash charts are correct.
Do you know of any papers on the poker adaption of nash eq that go into detail?
thanks
Can't bring myself to shove wide/nash when effectives are shallow Quote
03-20-2017 , 12:16 PM
When you have 6bb>, the FE you create by shoving 87o makes it far too profitable to fold. Opp can fold better hands (9x, Tx, some Jx), maybe call with worse hands (76s 75s 56s etc), you're flipping v 22-66 and will often have two live cards vs over cards.

A BB is too valuable relative to your stack size, you have FE % and 87o does OK against his calling range.

I think folding 87o would be emotional and impact long term win rate. gl gg
Can't bring myself to shove wide/nash when effectives are shallow Quote
03-20-2017 , 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepdaleDuck
http://www.holdemresources.net/h/poker-theory/hune.html - the calling refers to BB? Is that proven game theory?
Yes, in a shove/fold restricted game, deviating from either the sb or bb solutions will lose money for whoever deviates. Around 6bb and below the ev of shoving nash vs. having a more complex strategy with limping is pretty much 0, but you might want to modify the calling range a little bit (because most players don't shove pure nash).

Quote:
I will start following it closely. But what would be your response my statement you are more likely to improve your hand after losing 1BB, is there a way to answer that without assumption (that I believe btw) the nash charts are correct.
Don't know what this means. We don't shove hands like 87o because we're ahead when called, we shove them because we also have fold equity and there are a lot of chips (relative to stacksize) in the middle already. Fold equity is huge and you're definitely owning yourself if you're not shoving wide enough shallow.

Quote:
Do you know of any papers on the poker adaption of nash eq that go into detail?
thanks
None that I know of, but the nash solutions are correct.
Can't bring myself to shove wide/nash when effectives are shallow Quote
03-20-2017 , 02:43 PM
The way to think about it is that it's maximizing the expectation value of your stack at the end of the hand. If you hit a stronger hand next hand, you'll have a higher expected stack to play it with.
Can't bring myself to shove wide/nash when effectives are shallow Quote

      
m