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Old 04-07-2016, 04:48 AM   #151
Pl@yerABC
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

The amount of money ($) you win or loose is dependent on two factors - your skill and luck.
If you take the game seriously you want to have a clear picture about your poker skills. If you are winning - Are you beating the game or are you just running hot? If you are loosing money - Are you playing that badly or is it just a cold deck?
There are lot of ways how variance will influence your $ results. One type of variance - the one that is easily measurable - is your results when you go all-in. Let's say you go all-in preflop with 500$. Villain calls. Pot is 1000$. You have a strong hand with 80% equity (meaning you will win on average 8 times out of 10). In a real game you will either win 1000$ or go bust. Statistically speaking - on average - you will win 300$ per game.
equation:
+(how often you win)*(amount you win) - (how often you loose)*(amount you loose) =
0.8*500$ -0.2*500$ = 300$
So we say that you expect (on average) to win 300$ in this situation. And this statistical number is called expected value or $EV or simply EV.
In Spins the situation is little bit more complicated. We could be playing in 2x multiplier game but also in 200x multiplier game. Our performance in 200x multiplier game would have a huge effect on our $EV compared to the effect caused by our good or bad play in a low multiplier game. But there is an easy solution for this - when computing EV - we are no longer working with $$$ but we are using tournament chips instead. We are using the same equation as before, but this time instead of dollars we are doing calculations with chips. The result is called chip expected value or chipEV or cEV.
You don't need to do calculations by yourself, your poker database program will calculate all these statistical numbers for you.
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:26 PM   #152
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Each hand you play has a cEV and is always calculated in one of four ways, depending on how the hand ends:

i) If there is an all-in before the river then PT4 calculates your chip equity (how much chips you expect to win or lose on average against your opponents' hands on the given board) at that point in the hand (disregarding any previous action in the hand) and adds that to your cEV count for the game.

ii) If the chips are first shown-down at the river, whether all in or not (but not all-in preflop, flop or turn) then your chip equity is exactly the amount of chips you win or lose in that hand.

iii)If you win the pot without showdown then your cEV is the amount of chips you won in that hand.

iv) If you fold at any point then your cEV is the amount of chips you lost in that hand.

Then your cEV for each hand is added up to give you a total cEV for the game.
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Old 04-08-2016, 03:41 PM   #153
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Thanks guys, clear examples and I now have a proper understanding of cEV and EV.

I have PT4 and a friend who is a full time grinder of Spins so he helps me out every now and then. He say's you should concentrate on EV ROI stat and not worry about ROI: play at least 3k games to see a clearer win rate. Elaborate on the EV ROI?
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Old 04-08-2016, 09:41 PM   #154
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

EV ROI is just a function of cEV; the higher your cEV the higher your EV ROI. There is a one to one correspondance between these two variables at any one buy in, so you can use either to give an approximation of how well you're playing. It is meant to estimate your true ROI by neutralizing the luck factors as much as possible; it neutralizes the luck factor regarding the card distributions/showdowns by using cEV as described above, and it neutralizes the luck factor regarding the spin multiplier by treating every game as though it's for the same prizepool size (which is 3buyins - 3buyin fees, the avg prizepool size). There is no skill in the spinning aspect of the game, which is why we adjust the prizepool size like this (a 6x for example should not carry more weight than a 2x as far as skill is concerned, since there was no skill in spinning the bigger multiplier).
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Old 04-09-2016, 07:03 PM   #155
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

That makes sense nateofclubs.

Another question if you will, is it standard in spins to have a higher red line than blue line since we are usually capitalizing on fold equity? Here a graph of my results for $7. All comments and suggestions welcome.

http://imgur.com/SxRDYms
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:54 PM   #156
nateofclubs
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

I'm not sure what other players' graphs look like, but I'm going to guess no this is not standard. In any case, how steep your red line is is dependent on your style and is not really the determining factor of how well you're playing. If you're an aggro player who bets/raises a lot to steal/take down pots then this will increase your red curve but it will be at the expense of your blue curve. If you're a trappy player then you will win more pots at showdown that the aggro player might have otherwise won without showdown, so you'll have a lower red curve. At the end of the day, the curve that matters (from a performance/skill point of view) is the brown one; the red one is just an intermediate factor that affects the brown one. Your red one doesn't even have to be positive for you to be doing well. For example over the last 3100 games I've played my cEV (the brown one) is 75/game even though my red one is -12/game. (I'm happy when it's 0/game.)
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Old 05-02-2016, 03:43 AM   #157
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

So is pt4 the only option for tracking results on jackpot sngs across the various networks that offer them? Every graph I see is in pt4 and never HM2
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Old 05-06-2016, 04:01 AM   #158
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Pretty much yeah. To calculate SpinEVROI you need custom stats, which HM2 does not have. You can use HM2 ChipEV and calculate SpinEVROI manually, if you really want to.
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Old 05-06-2016, 01:26 PM   #159
StructureK
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Thanks for the reply Dave. Are there links or guides to help create or pre download those custom stats? Also is there a more in depth explanation as to what exactly they interpret or how to utilize them? (Other than just my expected value of them)
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Old 05-06-2016, 09:48 PM   #160
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

You can find the code for PT4 SpinEVROI here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=4276

it is EVROI with multiplier variance removed - imagine every game was just a 3x buyin prize pool (which they are given an infinite sample), this stat shows what your EVROI is in such a game.

How to enter it in PT4, do Configure -> Statistics and enter that in a new stat. I don't know link to documentation off hand, but read some PT4 documentation it isn't terribly troublesome to learn the basics.
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Old 05-09-2016, 12:37 PM   #161
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

^^

Why not try out for yourself?

And how much he makes in 2 weeks matters not. What's his cEV, $EV, EV ROI and EV ITM?
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:56 AM   #162
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

I've a Question how do people react or do when they are on a downswing or variance is a ***** do you take a break do you go outside breath some fresh air do you smash ur laptop(k this one is extream but yeah..) i'm really interested in this because i want to change mu ***** mindset and i can't so i want to know what better poker players do in this spot , every response it very much appreciated.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:29 AM   #163
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by necse6alex View Post
do you take a break do you go outside breath some fresh air
This. You've answered your own question
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:03 PM   #164
necse6alex
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

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Originally Posted by coon74 View Post
This. You've answered your own question
Yeah but u still don't get me i was talking about myself when i said those things , i was wondering about other guys better guys than me ,im doing all those things go outside workout do some sparing(kickboxing punching things, and my partener if i find someone) and still i come back okay but i get 2-3 bad beats and it's all over again.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:05 PM   #165
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

You should work on your mental game the same way you work on other aspects of your poker game. Over time it takes more and more to make you tilt, your focus will improve etc.
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Old 05-12-2016, 04:39 AM   #166
necse6alex
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Actually this is the only thing that makes me tilt is the game or either i just hate losing in real-life i don't get angry at all at nothing really calm guy(and yeah i do abit of kick-boxing and i know how to controll myself) but this game idk the variance is so fkng s.hit i hate it , not so angry on the players as they are the main income for alot u guys here, i think i need a acouple oh thousands games to get used to this and work on my mindset.When i get tilted it doesn't take me alot of time to get back at it but is the same when i start playing again 2-3 badbeats and im back at it .
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Old 05-14-2016, 04:58 AM   #167
necse6alex
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Hey guys i have a question, so for example i have medium strength poket pairs or good broadways and i play vs a weak player bvb every time i raise him he calls very wide and he almost every time he cb on the flop if i check behind what is the most profitable way to play them for example is it profitable to shove 77 in sb 20+ versus them i don't find any other way to play, i would like to reduce my variance as more as i can but yeah if someone can give me some knowledge it will be grandly appreciated.
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Old 05-16-2016, 06:14 PM   #168
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

U can call if he bet 100%
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Old 05-17-2016, 03:44 AM   #169
none888
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

you raise him and he cb? cbets I assume after you check back? sounds very weird
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:39 AM   #170
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Maybe its head's up, so he calls our raise preflop and then on the flop he bets out? Or.....?
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Old 05-17-2016, 02:46 PM   #171
necse6alex
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

No for example im in sb and bb is a total fish i have 66 or 77(doesn't mater) , im 20 bb deep and if i raise he calls almost 90% of his range then the flops come A high flop or something or a wet flop i can't really try to cb on the flop i need to think twice if it's okay to cb, but the main question was that if it was profitable for me to shove poket pairs in them, and i think this is the best obtion for me to just shove in them rather than just raise pre and fold on the flop or turn.

Last edited by necse6alex; 05-17-2016 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 05-17-2016, 05:57 PM   #172
Federer20
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Can anyone give some pointers how to play a2-a8o from the sb vs a btn minraise. Do we call, 3bet, shove vs unknown 25bb deep. I have no clue
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Old 05-17-2016, 07:56 PM   #173
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by necse6alex View Post
No for example im in sb and bb is a total fish i have 66 or 77(doesn't mater) , im 20 bb deep and if i raise he calls almost 90% of his range then the flops come A high flop or something or a wet flop i can't really try to cb on the flop i need to think twice if it's okay to cb, but the main question was that if it was profitable for me to shove poket pairs in them, and i think this is the best obtion for me to just shove in them rather than just raise pre and fold on the flop or turn.
It will be profitable to shove any pocket pair long term but the question is if it is the most profitable option. If villain is playing 90% of hands I'm sure you can see that a lot of the time on an ace high flop they won't have an ace. So if they are such weak players, maybe its better to play post-flop against them with a strong hand like 77? You will also improve your game by playing hands post flop and in time not feel so uncomfortable in these spots.
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:43 AM   #174
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Federer20 View Post
Can anyone give some pointers how to play a2-a8o from the sb vs a btn minraise. Do we call, 3bet, shove vs unknown 25bb deep. I have no clue
I've been folding A2o-A7o and flatting A8o deep, but I'm not sure about this either.
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:10 AM   #175
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

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Originally Posted by naraparasauce View Post
I've been folding A2o-A7o and flatting A8o deep, but I'm not sure about this either.
The wider btn is mring the more you want to call or shove them. If they have 40%+ mr and won't call a 3bs with A7o, A5s and stuff like that 3b shoving is really good. Otherwise flatting does pretty well. Vs nitty openers I'd fold A6o and flat A7/A8.
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