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Old 01-23-2016, 12:42 AM   #26
minamo99
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Re: SpinandGo questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeeyay View Post
This is what the beginner's thread is for :P

Generally spins are a little more profitable than Hypers given same stakes, but the variance is also higher and therefore needed bankroll is higher.

I think the BI recommendations from nefirmative are a little too conservative. If you're willing to move down 50 for hypers and 100 for spins is often fine. But it depends a ton on your expected winrate, and in general it's better to be too conservative than too aggressive--particularly if you're not good at moving down.

As far as info, the only good book is Mers' free e-book available through husng.com. It's HU specific, and a bit out of date, but it's still a solid starting place. Will Tipton's Expert No Limit Hold'em volumes 1 and 2 are a fantastic resource for HU but are decidedly more advanced and difficult--to get a lot out of them you'll have to put in a lot of work.

As for spins, there's really only video packs. Mine (Beating Spin and Go Poker, available on husng.com) has a section about variance and bankroll management (as well as 14 hours of other content!). There's also tons of free content on husng.com you can check out to give you some ideas (including a million dollar spin and go!).

And yeah, shallow stack poker is still pretty complicated and nuanced. Even 5bb GTO strategies have limping ranges, but 5bb is around where push/fold and full GTO start converging (in both strategy and EV). Deeper than that play is decidedly not push/fold So definitely look into solid shallow stack strategy and be willing to limp a lot.
Thanks for your kind post, I'll definitely look up more info at that site.
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Old 01-23-2016, 01:00 AM   #27
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateofclubs View Post
What's the minimum cEV you would suggest before moving up in stakes provided you have the br? I have 900 buyins at my current level but have always been such a wuss when it comes to moving up.
Assume a drop of at least 10cEV per stake (assuming you have an accurate idea of your winrate). 55cEV over a large sample (MINIMUM 1k) is a good amount because you'll almost definitely be profitable at the next stake. You can ofc move back down if you aren't beating the games.
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:34 AM   #28
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
Yep.

55+ Is smooth sailing and makes it difficult to have long losing stretches. A 60s or 100s crusher could probably have 100 if it was worth their time. 45+ Means you're doing a lot right but have a lot of basic stuff to improve.
thanks for your help
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:24 AM   #29
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

I'm pretty confused by these spots as it seems I'm pretty much always wrong no matter what I chose. I'm pretty readless as I'm new to these stakes and it's the beginning of the match, but sb seemed fishier and bb reggier.

Is it ok to go broke with TPGK even 3 handed here? I mean, I'm cbetting a bit bigger because of the board texture with the intention of going with my hand, but with this action, I'm doubting myself.


[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $14.25 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37226369

BB: 600 (30 bb)
Hero (BTN): 430 (21.5 bb)
SB: 470 (23.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K J
Hero raises to 40, SB calls 30, BB calls 20

Flop: (120) 9 K 6 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 70, SB calls 70, BB raises to 560 and is all-in
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:55 PM   #30
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny80 View Post
I'm pretty confused by these spots as it seems I'm pretty much always wrong no matter what I chose. I'm pretty readless as I'm new to these stakes and it's the beginning of the match, but sb seemed fishier and bb reggier.

Is it ok to go broke with TPGK even 3 handed here? I mean, I'm cbetting a bit bigger because of the board texture with the intention of going with my hand, but with this action, I'm doubting myself.


[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $14.25 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37226369

BB: 600 (30 bb)
Hero (BTN): 430 (21.5 bb)
SB: 470 (23.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K J
Hero raises to 40, SB calls 30, BB calls 20

Flop: (120) 9 K 6 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 70, SB calls 70, BB raises to 560 and is all-in
for me it is a snap call.
there are only some hand combos that have you beat:

99 66 96 K9 K6 KQ AK

most villains would shove in the BB with AK and dont call the mr.
Any Kx combo is unlikley because there are only 2 more outside and you have a blocker for a straight.

On the other side, there are a lot of combos possible:

QJ QT T9 87 and any flushdraw
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:11 PM   #31
generic91
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

how many spin and go can be play in a day multitabling 4 tables at the same time?

there is any aplication wich detect when i finish a game and open automatic a new tournamet like sharky do with hu?
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:41 PM   #32
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

4 tabling constantly will be 25-30 games/hr (depending on your play speed) assuming the games start almost immediately. I personally find 6 in game hours a day to be fairly easy with this volume, 8 becomes difficult, and 10 is doable but very tiring. This depends on the individual and gets easier with practice.

I'm sure software is available for that but I just press ctrl+s (register for similar tournament) while mousing over an open spin and go.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:54 PM   #33
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
4 tabling constantly will be 25-30 games/hr (depending on your play speed) assuming the games start almost immediately. I personally find 6 in game hours a day to be fairly easy with this volume, 8 becomes difficult, and 10 is doable but very tiring. This depends on the individual and gets easier with practice.

I'm sure software is available for that but I just press ctrl+s (register for similar tournament) while mousing over an open spin and go.
thanks again bro .

i put in contact with sharky staff and dont work with spin and go so i gonna try ctrl+s
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Old 01-24-2016, 02:45 PM   #34
Vinny80
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Vilain seems to be a reg. Am I risking too much putting in 14BB here? I tried putting in a random range for vilain to limp/call here, but it's pulled out of thin air as I have no read really. Against that random range, I have 42% equity. So vilain needs to fold a bit over 50% for the shove to be EV+.

That said, 3x/fold is probably better right?



    Poker Stars, $14.25 Buy-in (15/30 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37226806

    Hero (BB): 427 (14.2 bb)
    BTN: 670 (22.3 bb)
    SB: 403 (13.4 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with 9 K
    BTN folds, SB completes, Hero raises to 427 and is all-in, SB folds

    Spoiler:



    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
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    Old 01-24-2016, 03:28 PM   #35
    CaliRaider
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Vinny80 View Post
    Vilain seems to be a reg. Am I risking too much putting in 14BB here? I tried putting in a random range for vilain to limp/call here, but it's pulled out of thin air as I have no read really. Against that random range, I have 42% equity. So vilain needs to fold a bit over 50% for the shove to be EV+.

    That said, 3x/fold is probably better right?



      Poker Stars, $14.25 Buy-in (15/30 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37226806

      Hero (BB): 427 (14.2 bb)
      BTN: 670 (22.3 bb)
      SB: 403 (13.4 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with 9 K
      BTN folds, SB completes, Hero raises to 427 and is all-in, SB folds

      Spoiler:



      Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
      definitely ISO will be better with how well it plays post. I would not shove much besides Ax and PPs without a read they're folding a ton to AI
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      Old 01-24-2016, 06:53 PM   #36
      Podelapin
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      Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

      Hi,

      What do you do guys on the turn here in a vacuum? Do I check the turn? It's the third hand of the match. No reads. Do we call otr?
      Thks!

      [converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $4.65 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: 430 (21.5 bb)
      BTN: 630 (31.5 bb)
      Hero (SB): 440 (22 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 6 T
      BTN folds, Hero completes, BB checks

      Flop: (40) 3 6 2 (2 players)
      Hero bets 32, BB calls 32

      Turn: (104) 5 (2 players)
      Hero bets 60, BB calls 60

      River: (224) Q (2 players)
      Hero checks, BB bets 60, [color="grey"]Hero
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      Old 01-25-2016, 11:43 AM   #37
      Vinny80
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      Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Podelapin View Post
      Hi,

      What do you do guys on the turn here in a vacuum? Do I check the turn? It's the third hand of the match. No reads. Do we call otr?
      Thks!

      [converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $4.65 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: 430 (21.5 bb)
      BTN: 630 (31.5 bb)
      Hero (SB): 440 (22 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 6 T
      BTN folds, Hero completes, BB checks

      Flop: (40) 3 6 2 (2 players)
      Hero bets 32, BB calls 32

      Turn: (104) 5 (2 players)
      Hero bets 60, BB calls 60

      River: (224) Q (2 players)
      Hero checks, BB bets 60, [color="grey"]Hero
      As a cash game player dabbling into spins, my SB limping range is not all mapped out in my brain yet, but I feel that readless T6o might be a bit too wide. It's gotta be close, as T8 is most def right and T7 probably good as well.

      As played, I like the turn bet. Obv, we're going for a bet/fold. I think we might get somme calls still by weaker sixes and some A2, A3, 75, etc. River sucks, but is probably a sigh call given the fact that there's a busted flush draw out there and we get very good odds.
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      Old 01-25-2016, 03:44 PM   #38
      Vinny80
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      Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

      Against 2 fish. If I was in BB this would be a snap call, but here I feel like it's very very close, what do you do?



      [converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $14.25 Buy-in (15/30 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37227038

      BTN: 364 (12.1 bb)
      Hero (SB): 778 (25.9 bb)
      BB: 358 (11.9 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 8 A
      BTN raises to 364 and is all-in,
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      Old 01-25-2016, 04:23 PM   #39
      ododeeddom
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      Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
      Yep.

      55+ Is smooth sailing and makes it difficult to have long losing stretches. A 60s or 100s crusher could probably have 100 if it was worth their time. 45+ Means you're doing a lot right but have a lot of basic stuff to improve.
      hahahahaaahaaaa. i appreciate your posts overall but this has to be statement of the year for now 55+ smooth sailing? well I have 84chips last 6k games and I am breakeven.... if you check my run over last 3 years in every game I played after huge sample you will quickly find out that RNG affects different accounts differently but I think it is insane to talk about fair enviromment. I am suprised coaches like cofee with their math background and huge databases aren't a bit suspicious, there are many ways you can cover up distribution anomalies in huge samples though....I also have mathemathical background and I find out some things just ain't working out as they should but without serious proofs which would take just too much time and the whole army behind me, since there are millions and millions of dollars on the line and safety can be an issue, there is really nothing one can do about it
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      Old 01-25-2016, 06:29 PM   #40
      iiil Capitaaano
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      Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Podelapin View Post
      Hi,

      What do you do guys on the turn here in a vacuum? Do I check the turn? It's the third hand of the match. No reads. Do we call otr?
      Thks!

      [converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $4.65 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: 430 (21.5 bb)
      BTN: 630 (31.5 bb)
      Hero (SB): 440 (22 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 6 T
      BTN folds, Hero completes, BB checks

      Flop: (40) 3 6 2 (2 players)
      Hero bets 32, BB calls 32

      Turn: (104) 5 (2 players)
      Hero bets 60, BB calls 60

      River: (224) Q (2 players)
      Hero checks, BB bets 60, [color="grey"]Hero
      I think I would fold. Readless I dont think a fish would bet a lower pair here, probably not even a six.
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      Old 01-25-2016, 11:09 PM   #41
      Arkaitz
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      Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

      +90 is smooth sailing

      75-90 quite good this depends on limit , im talking 15$

      Maybe 10 players have 90 + on long samples

      most better regs have 75-90

      Having + 80 in long samples and losing is possible but usually u will win
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      Old 01-26-2016, 08:48 AM   #42
      mrtn
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      Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

      Hi,

      did I play that hand alright? Or should I maybe bet a little bit more on the flop and check on the turn?

        Poker Stars, $0.93 Buy-in (15/30 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 2 Players
        Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37228410

        BB: 855 (28.5 bb)
        Hero (SB): 645 (21.5 bb)

        Preflop: Hero is SB with 8 J
        Hero raises to 60, BB calls 30

        Flop: (120) A Q T (2 players)
        BB checks, Hero bets 49, BB calls 49

        Turn: (218) 6 (2 players)
        BB checks, Hero bets 89, BB raises to 746 and is all-in, Hero folds

        Spoiler:



        Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
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        Old 01-27-2016, 07:38 PM   #43
        kobmish
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        Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by mrtn View Post
        Hi,

        did I play that hand alright? Or should I maybe bet a little bit more on the flop and check on the turn?
        It's absolutely fine as played.
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        Old 01-28-2016, 05:33 PM   #44
        RedHot
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        Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

        How do the spin and go' son Stars compare to for example Twister? Are they tougher, how is the rake? Is the information given in these spin and go threads primarily for the Stars version? How about the video packs?
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        Old 01-28-2016, 08:19 PM   #45
        Nefirmative
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        Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by RedHot View Post
        How do the spin and go' son Stars compare to for example Twister? Are they tougher, how is the rake? Is the information given in these spin and go threads primarily for the Stars version? How about the video packs?
        Same structure, probably tougher than other sites at higher stakes. Discussion about these games is usually geared towards Stars Spins so might be skewed towards exploiting the population but the theory applies to the format on all sites.

        Not a fan of video packs because the info is usually either bad, obvious, easy to access in other ways or quickly becomes outdated. That's just my opinion though.
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        Old 01-29-2016, 10:50 AM   #46
        Captain Sifilis
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        Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

        If i remember well, twister have antes and spins don't, so they are a different beast. Again, this is from the bottom of my memories, because i'm not abble to play in any of this sites due to regulamentation in my country.
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        Old 01-29-2016, 11:40 PM   #47
        coon74
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        Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

        Blind/ante levels in Twister (that has the same 500 starting chips):

        10/20 no ante
        15/30 ante 5
        20/40 ante 5
        30/60 ante 5
        40/80 ante 8
        50/100 ante 10
        60/120 ante 10
        80/160 ante 15
        100/200 ante 20
        etc.

        There's a big gap between the average skill levels of €5s and €10s, as the latter is the maximum buy-in on offer and all the top regs of the network reside there. The same applies to the difference between PKR $6s and $12s. I have no idea about the difference between WPN $10s, $25s and $40s.

        I've started thinking that Stars 15s have become a bit softer than iPoker 10s and PKR 12s now, but I've never put 15s to a test. I'm allergic to paying about 3.50% net rake for a single game at Stars. It's less on iPoker but games are 1.5-2 times shorter, so actually, the net rake in buy-ins per hand is about the same.

        Last edited by coon74; 01-29-2016 at 11:48 PM.
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        Old 01-30-2016, 12:04 AM   #48
        _dave_
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        Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Arkaitz View Post
        CHAOSAD
        Tanks on the streets!

        Last edited by _dave_; 01-30-2016 at 12:04 AM. Reason: couldn't resist :)
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        Old 01-30-2016, 05:13 AM   #49
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        Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

        Hey guys, finally had some free time so I figured I'd catch up on this thread

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by nateofclubs View Post
        What's the minimum cEV you would suggest before moving up in stakes provided you have the br? I have 900 buyins at my current level but have always been such a wuss when it comes to moving up.
        Here's a solid move-up move-down strategy for lower win-rates:


        I derive and explain this strategy in my Beating Spins videopack—it also has charts for more win-rates and more details like incorporating cash-outs and rake-back. Definitely looks like you're using too conservative bankroll management. As long as you're willing to move down, the bankroll strategy above will be much better for building your roll.
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        Old 01-30-2016, 05:13 AM   #50
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        Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Vinny80 View Post
        I'm pretty confused by these spots as it seems I'm pretty much always wrong no matter what I chose. I'm pretty readless as I'm new to these stakes and it's the beginning of the match, but sb seemed fishier and bb reggier.

        Is it ok to go broke with TPGK even 3 handed here? I mean, I'm cbetting a bit bigger because of the board texture with the intention of going with my hand, but with this action, I'm doubting myself.


        [converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $14.25 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
        Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37226369

        BB: 600 (30 bb)
        Hero (BTN): 430 (21.5 bb)
        SB: 470 (23.5 bb)

        Preflop: Hero is BTN with K J
        Hero raises to 40, SB calls 30, BB calls 20

        Flop: (120) 9 K 6 (3 players)
        SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 70, SB calls 70, BB raises to 560 and is all-in
        This is definitely a close spot. In theory BB's range should be very strong since both you and the BU have fairly strong ranges in this spot, and so if he takes that into account our hand will likely end up a borderline bluff catcher (since his value range shouldn't include worse hand then ours because of the situation). That being said, many weak players will not take these factors into account and will shove worse value as well as a good amount of draws. These means that in many situations we happily call, but sometimes we can make a fold--the exact decision will end up depending on population tendencies at the specific site and stake together with any reads you have on villain. While this can be an unsatisfying answer since it can be tough to assess the extra information, it's worth noting that whenever a situation ends up close like this it means that the EVs of the two options will usually end up fairly similar so you can't make a big mistake here. It also means that these kinds of decisions can be easily decided using small reads since our regret of acting on small samples is quite low since EVs will run close anyways.

        Another sway close decisions one way or the other is to consider win-rate maxing. Win-rate maxing is the concept that when you assume you have edge in a tournament, maximizing your chipEV in every spot does not maximize the probability of winning the tournament. Essentially since we assume we have edge, the longer the tournament lasts the more time we get to exert that edge (for the same rake payment) and so a strategy with low in-game variance, and therefore high average game lenght, is preferred to one with a similar chipEV (or even a little higher) but with higher in-game variance (and therefore lower game length).

        In this case folding clearly has lower in-game variance then calling so if we are looking to win-rate max (for example in a high multiplier) and we believe the EV of calling and folding is fairly close (or we believe that we're unable to estimate the two EVs and have to guess between the two options) we should choose to fold. So in a high-multiplier I would be very inclined to fold this (especially since players tend to be more tight passive in high-multipliers so BB will be bluffing and value betting thin less often). In a low stakes 2x vs a BB we know is very weak, it's likely a call.
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