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09-17-2010 , 03:05 PM
Quite the interesting spot and was basically wonder whether leading or c/c'ing is better. Checkraise seems pretty meh. Here's the hand:

Party Poker No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t30.00/t60.00 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 931840
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): t1750.00 29.17 BBs
BTN/SB: t2250.00 37.50 BBs

Pre Flop: (t90) Hero is BB with 8 K
BTN/SB raises to t120, Hero calls t60

Flop: (t240) 3 5 8 (2 players)

And the reads:
-Villain is a reg, used to be fairly nitty but opened up just a tiny bit. I estimate his preflop minraising range to be near the 60-65% range, possibly 70% but not more with these stacksizes. He doesn't limp with these stacksizes but does so when stacks get 24bb's or shallower (rough estimation, he frequently limps around 15bb's just to give an example).
-If I check he will bet 120 with most of his range but polar. So medium hands (2nd pair type of hands or A4 with 4h or smth he's most likely checking back but he will bet QJ with a heart or Kh/Ah or any toppair/overpair). If I checkraise I think I have to fold because I estimate his 3betjammingrange will have us in reasonably bad shape. I doubt he will even jam something like Q8ss just to give you an idea.
-Regarding barreling: he doesn't barrel that often really, i'm convinced he will not always bet a hand with 2 overs + fd if turn is a brick for example. Not that much reads on him here unfortunately, he just doesn't do it that much but not much experience with boards like these. He did 2barrel A72ddAx board and checked back 6x river with T9o though (which didn't make a lot of sense to me but whatever) in the beginning of this session (maybe even this game, don't remember exactly).
-If I lead he will play really straightforward. He'll float with a lot of hands with a heart, and raise only with nutted made hands (TP with a decent heart or made flushes or two pair or sets) or with strong draws so I can safely bet/fold really.

These are my other notes on him how irrelevant they may be even:
Quote:
nitty OOP, dont think he 3bet bluffs, doesnt defend too light
opens buttons reasonable nitty, doesnt barrel that much
doesnt checkraise a lot really, c/c's toppair at least sometimes
will start randomly 3bet when stuck
flatted QQ 17bb's deep, c/c TT2r, Jx turn checked through, lead 6x river quite big
limps fair amount when < 20bb's, plays super polar/straightforward in limped pots
So what is best here? Check/call and trap some dead money? Or lead and make the hand a lot easier to play?
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09-17-2010 , 03:10 PM
I think I like to c/call here since he we will bet most of his air, and as you have said he doesn't barrel that muchif I read correctly . If you b/f here you miss the value from pure air imo...
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09-17-2010 , 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nederlander
I think I like to c/call here since he we will bet most of his air, and as you have said he doesn't barrel that muchif I read correctly . If you b/f here you miss the value from pure air imo...
But if we bet we gain a lot of value from mid-pair type of hands or some weaker draws that he wouldn't bet himself. On a board like this I think the percentage of total airballz and hands that he will call a bet with but not bet itself are almost similar (maybe a tad more airballz).
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09-17-2010 , 03:19 PM
i think i would cc flop and lead a bunch of turns. i think leading the flop makes it easy for him to play his hand and i dont think it will induce too many mistakes
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09-17-2010 , 03:19 PM
Arghz,
well if that ratio is about even, leading makes it easier to play (which you said) and he also might call a other turnbet with a hand that flatcalled the flop.
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09-17-2010 , 03:24 PM
its interesting you guys think the hand is easier to play if you lead because i would think opposite.

whats your plan if turn is a non heart overcard

Last edited by Tamas6; 09-17-2010 at 03:26 PM. Reason: read op again and it answered all my other Qs
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09-17-2010 , 03:30 PM
def dislike c/r.

I like c/c and lead a lot of turns as well.
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09-17-2010 , 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mersenneary
def dislike c/r.

I like c/c and lead a lot of turns as well.
what do you do if you get raised on the turn?
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09-17-2010 , 03:35 PM
c/c lead line induces a ridiculous amount of spazz even from normal players, idk if I'm too comfortable folding
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09-17-2010 , 03:47 PM
i prob c/c flop...

lead Kx/8x/3x/2x/4x/6x/7x turns; c/f any heart. c/c 9x - Ax. i think.
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09-17-2010 , 03:51 PM
leading definitely the more easy/standard option but kinda weird to play vs a raise (i guess just fold vs the player described)

regarding c/c, i wouldn't lead the turn if i did.
i'd expect it to go check/check the vaaast majority of the time on a brick and expect to

a) pick off a lot of river bluffs on a heart from a range that gets to the river with WAY more air in it than value bets (hearts) given the cbet range u assign him, plus the fact ppl love to bluff 4flush boards

and b) you can rep a ton of random 1h hands that missed when it goes c/c, ck/ck, and bricks roll off on turn / rivers
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09-17-2010 , 04:11 PM
I'd c/c this board mostly,since he will bet a lot,things he checks behind are a pretty small part of his range anyways. Prolly c/c turn too,most things that call a lead will bet turn often or snap river.
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09-17-2010 , 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortSharpShock
leading definitely the more easy/standard option but kinda weird to play vs a raise (i guess just fold vs the player described)

regarding c/c, i wouldn't lead the turn if i did.
i'd expect it to go check/check the vaaast majority of the time on a brick and expect to

a) pick off a lot of river bluffs on a heart from a range that gets to the river with WAY more air in it than value bets (hearts) given the cbet range u assign him, plus the fact ppl love to bluff 4flush boards

and b) you can rep a ton of random 1h hands that missed when it goes c/c, ck/ck, and bricks roll off on turn / rivers
Above my pay grade so just asking questions...

Does the read that he gets antsy and 3bets light when stuck influence this? Right now villain is up a bit in chips and may feel less frisky/bluffy on the river.
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09-17-2010 , 10:30 PM
Idk cause this is obv way higher than my skill level but seems like its better for our whole range if we lead since he can play more hands profitably if we c/c or c/r I think.
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09-17-2010 , 11:28 PM
I don't care about making the hand easier to play, it is about getting the most value for our hand when it is best & losing least when not etc. etc.

If we lead and he is this straight-forward, then raises keep us from losing too much...but if he has nothing then we aren't getting the most value for our hand.

Personally, if he isn't barrelling that much then I am going to be leading flop more often with the top end of my value range and opening up my bluffing range. Do we feel that we are at the top of our value range here? I don't, and I know that spamz likes to keep AhXx or KhXx in his floating range so it seems that c/c is the way I'm leaning.

If he checks back, we can easily narrow down his range. If he bets, we can narrow down his range and we know he won't go 3 barrels w/o a good hand. Our range stays pretty ambiguous, which is advantageous as well.
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09-17-2010 , 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal Gunners
I don't care about making the hand easier to play, it is about getting the most value for our hand when it is best & losing least when not etc. etc.
If 2 lines are really really close in EV then obv the one that gives you least troubles/decisions is the prefered one. Was just trying to find out if it's close or if opinions are weighed towards one side.

Quote:
Do we feel that we are at the top of our value range here? I don't, and I know that spamz likes to keep AhXx or KhXx in his floating range so it seems that c/c is the way I'm leaning.
Idk why this is relevant that much really. Idk how much exactly AhXx is in my c/c range since only A7/A6 have nothing else to go with it tbh. I can def c/c a hand like KhTx some of the time indeed though.
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09-17-2010 , 11:48 PM
At first I was seriously thinking lead was what I would do here to attack the middle partof his range that we can potentially give free cards to. But then I read SSS post and I have to agree with what he has said, seems to make a lot of sense...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortSharpShock
leading definitely the more easy/standard option but kinda weird to play vs a raise (i guess just fold vs the player described)

regarding c/c, i wouldn't lead the turn if i did.
i'd expect it to go check/check the vaaast majority of the time on a brick and expect to

a) pick off a lot of river bluffs on a heart from a range that gets to the river with WAY more air in it than value bets (hearts) given the cbet range u assign him, plus the fact ppl love to bluff 4flush boards

and b) you can rep a ton of random 1h hands that missed when it goes c/c, ck/ck, and bricks roll off on turn / rivers
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09-17-2010 , 11:52 PM
Yeah, the SSS post was pretty hot
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09-17-2010 , 11:57 PM
yeah well rest of hand was fairly uninteresting, turn was another 3 so i check he bets half pot i call again (obv?) and river Jh i c/f, dont know how much he bet but not that relevant i guess
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