Hey,
I would like to ask you, if I understand NASH right.

For example with 10bb if we are thinking only between push and fold and NASH say push, than push is always better than folding? But that does not mean, that it is best play, we can also minrais fold, minrais call or limp which could have better expectation.

And for example T4s should be push with 10.5BB. How does it change if villain has really wide calling range. With 9BB If we think again only between push and fold, NASH say push but if I put that situation into ICMIZER, he recommend me fold. So what is right?

Thanks

No

Hi,

Short answer is no. You're saying "NASH", but I assume you're referring to this: http://www.holdemresources.net/h/poker-theory/hune.html. That's a nash equilibrium, but it's not for poker. It's for poker if the SB was only allowed to push or fold. This is an important distinction. Imagine someone came up with a chart that showed nash equilibrium play for poker where the SB was only allowed to fold. Would you say that AA is a "nash fold" at 20bb? What I think a lot of people don't realize is that if you play the nash push or fold equilibrium from the SB, at any stack depth above about 7bb you're losing money (assuming your opponent is calling approximately nash), and the amount you're losing increases the deeper you get. It's only "unexploitable" in the same way that folding 100% of hands from the SB is unexploitable - it's an unexploitable strategy in a simplified version of poker that handicaps the SB significantly.

So, if a hand is a "nash shove" at, say, 10bb, does this mean that pushing it is always better than folding? No, there's a different chart for that, the http://www.poker-red.com/sites/default/files/images/noticias/sklansky-chubukov-table.png. But, that chart isn't very useful; the only useful fact to take away from that (imo) is that K2o can always do better shoving than folding at or below 10bb.

If a hand is a nash shove at 10bb, what that means is that if you shove every other hand in the nash shoving range at 10bb and your opponent calls perfectly against your range, then shoving the hand is better than folding. Hower, if, for example, you only shove the bottom half of the nash range for 10bb, and do something else with the top half (e.g. minraise it) and your opponent calls perfectly, then they will end up calling a lot wider since they don't have to worry about you having AA or KQ or w/e. This makes a lot of the hands that are nash shoves, worse to shove than fold.

If your opponent has a really wide calling range, then you don't want to shove any of the hands that are "nash shoves" based on their suited/connectedness, e.g. 87o, T6s, etc., because those hands rely on getting folds. Hands like K2o and 44 are still OK to shove (at 10bb), and hands like AKo and KQo might be a good idea to shove.

And yeah, in real poker at 10bb you have to keep in mind the options to minraise, limp, push, and fold, and decide on the best one.

If you know nothing about villain and you can only jam/fold, than yes if nash says jam than it is best play.

In this case you have some idea about his calling range and should adjust to maximally exploit him

Maybe not the best words, but the below added can assist you getting unstuck with the shove/fold mentality to some extent.

You have to realize that if your opponent calling range is close to nash (ie 5bb and below it is reasonable to assume to some extent); you can just shove wathever you want of the suggested shoving range and do with your better hands of it wathever you want.
For the non-better hands, your EV per hands stays the same because opponent calling range stays the same. And such you can do other things with your better hands (ie limping) if you are convinced that your EV increases with it.
And such suddenly your total strategy EV increased because you started to limp some hands and kept shoving others compared to playing shove/fold all.

However, if your opponent is a decent handreader; it is always possible that he respects your limps way more and suddenly you see him getting in with a tighter range then he would have done when you would have shoved instead.
And suddenly your total strategy EV decreased because you started to limp some hands and kept shoving others compared to playing shove/fold all.

Same kind of logic can be used for L/F, limpcbet give up --- MR/F, cbet give up --- Lc --- MR/c --- LS --- MR/get it in --- or wathever line of actions you can imagine with your hand.

Essentially when you keep increasing eff stack sizes; you start doing other things then shove or fold with your hands.
Essentially when you keep adding population tendancies/ opponent reads; you start doing other things then shove or fold with your hands.
Up to the point that you shove no hand or simple close to no hands (which is reality around 25bb). And the range the nash chart suggest to be folded will decrease also.

The reason for stating other things then shove with your hands is solely because you started from the total strategy shove/fold (provided at several stack depths); it has nothing to do with whether shove/fold makes any sense at all to start with. But since you are stuck at the moment with the shove/fold mentality, you can get yourself unstuck.

If Nash say push then push is the best play.but Nash doesn't include adjustments of the opponent(calling range,tight etc).for example if u play vs a pretty passive player Nash say push some hands with10bb but the best play is minr IMO.adjusted play adjust,readless play Nash

Just so we are clear about this part

If you hit assign Nash ranges in ICMIZER for 9BB spot T4s is a push of-course. Its only a fold if you edit BB calling range so it is wider than Nash calling range for 9BB spot.