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Old 03-06-2019, 01:07 AM   #1
PaulyJames200x
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Push Fold For Heads Up?

I don't play heads up sng or cash but i do play mostly low stakes mtt and some mttsng. Whenever i get into push/fold mode, i would refer to the pushfoldcharts.com where it shows the push/fold up to 16bb.



First off, are these charts correct or not? I saw they had same chart on headsupsitandgo.com for 0-11 bb heads up and they look exactly the same as pushfoldcharts.com. However is this still relevant now? I ask this because the pushfoldcharts site does not really suggest what the ante is for these things. Do we assume 10 or 12.5 percent?



I also have used floattheturn app on my phone and bought snapshove a while back to look at push/fold and what hands to call all in with etc. I notice that the hands are not exactly the same when you do 10 percent or 12.5 percent ante and even when you config the same, is there a reason the push/fold and calls are not the same with both apps?



What i also notice was when you make it heads up for example in push/fold and calling all in on floattheturn and snapshove... they shove and call much lighter than pushfoldcharts.com for heads up. Can someone here tell me which of these charts is the best? I use to follow push/fold charts.com but then i thought maybe snapshove is correct... thus you call much looser it seems.



Also another question i have is for the shoves and calls. Example both players start with say 12bb and 15bb. The person with 12bb is the button and the 15bb is the big blind. So there is an ante and button puts 0.5bb and BB puts in 1bb. So now they each have around 11bb and 14.5bb each or so and then you minus the ante. When the button shoves all in... and you are the BB... are you calling an all in according to the chart of 12bb or 11bb? Because you start the hand with 12bb but because you put in 1bb automatically for the BB, well now you have 11bb. I assume its always whatever bb you have after the antes and blinds are put?


Thus this also applies when you are the sb or bb in a full ring etc? Look at your stack size or other player stack size AFTER THE BLINDS AND ANTES ARE PUT?
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:13 AM   #2
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Example with 10bb according to


Pushfoldcharts


Push

22+, kx+, q2s+ q7o+ j3s+ j8o+ T5s+ T8o+ 95s+ 97o+ 85s+ 87o 74s+ 64s+ 53s


Call


22+ ax+ k2s + k6o+ q6s+ q8o+ j8s+ j9o+ T9s



Snapshove with 10% Ante


Push

22+ a2s+ a2o+ k2s+ k2o+ q2s+ q5o+ j2s+ j8o+ T4s+ 107o+ 95s+ 97o+ 84s+ 87o 74s+ 76o 63s+ 53s+ 43s


Call

22+ a2s+ a2o+ k2s+ k4o+ q5s+ q8o+ j7s+ j9o+ T8s+



Snapshove with 12.5% Ante

22+ a2s+ a2o+ k2s+ k2o+ q2s+ q5o+ j2s+ j7o+ T4s+ 107o+ 95s+ 97o+ 84s+ 87o 74s+ 76o 63s+ 53s+ 43s


Call

22+ a2s+ a2o+ k2s+ k3o+ q5s+ q8o+ j7s+ j9o+ T8s+



As you can see, the push/fold for pushfoldcharts vs snapshove... you notice that snapshove is a bit looser. Thus you can call with k3o to a 10bb shove according to snapshove with a 12.5 percent ante. And k4o with a 10 percent ante. Pushfoldcharts.com shows k6o+. Now i know thats only a few hands but many times when i play, i use to call with k6o. But now when i get hands like k3 or k4o with 10bb, im not sure which chart to use when its heads up.



Now since i play low and some mid stakes mtt where the ante seem to be 12.5 percent... does that mean i use that for heads up and ignore the chart on pushfoldcharts.com? Thus follow snapshove? Because not sure what chart pushfoldcharts uses as percentage? Also when full ring and calling all ins, should i really be making it 12.5 percent ante? Reason is when i do that, it seems to call very wide for shoves of 10-15bb.


Or should i just follow the pushfoldcharts.com heads up chart? I thought at first these look right? But then when snapshove and floattheturn have you calling 10bb shoves with k3o and k4o i thought that might be a bit loose? Basically i want to play nash. But im not sure which chart to use. I hate going from one chart to another because when its heads up, i use pushfold. But say when its full ring, i go with floattheturn or snapshove. What i do like about floattheturn and snapshove is you could push/fold up to 20bb or so and it tells you what you can call with to say a 15bb jam from LP and say you are on the button etc... whereas push fold charts does not.


But heads up for push/fold, what is the best recommendation?


Thanks all.
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:23 AM   #3
U shove i call
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

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Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x View Post
First off, are these charts correct or not? I saw they had same chart on headsupsitandgo.com for 0-11 bb heads up and they look exactly the same as pushfoldcharts.com. However is this still relevant now????????????
No mate its not relevant now between the time the charts were made and this very second the nash equilibrium has changed.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nash+equilibrium+poker
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Old 03-06-2019, 02:30 AM   #4
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Hi there. Im a bit confused with your wording on that?


I did google that earlier and did saw that. But it doesn't show the chart for pushing/calling. I saw that push/fold on pushfoldcharts.com and headsuppushfold.com.



And of cousre there is snapshove and floattheturn but its hard to memorize it because you cant print it out like pushfoldcharts where you could remmeber it etc.
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Old 03-06-2019, 04:25 AM   #5
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Just use nash push/fold ranges for pure push fold, thats what they are for.
https://www.holdemresources.net/hune
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Old 03-06-2019, 12:46 PM   #6
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Hi there. Just took a look at that again and see what you mean by that. So in the example where sb has 9bb and bb has 6bb and sb has 103s and bb has q2o,


the sb has to put in 0.5bb before the hand start and the bb has to put 1bb before the hand start and there is the ante. So are you suppose to look at this such as sb has 9bb to start the hand before the blinds and antes are posted or afterwards?


Also there is option of no ante vs 10% ante. But what is the purpose of no ante? So if you play mtt, always use the ante 10%. But not if you play say spin and go? Even heads up uses an ante. Also related to this. But is a 10% ante vs a 12.5% ante important? Because in terms of push fold, snapshove and floattheturn, there is option of 10 vs 12.5 percent ante. And well almost all sites use a 12.5 percent ante... and that mean you would call very wide with it though? Thanks.
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Old 03-06-2019, 12:58 PM   #7
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Okay so from looking at that, so basically the effective stack size is before the blinds and antes were posted? Thus 9bb and 6bb. After blinds are posted, it would be 8.4bb and 5.4bb or so but always use stack size before anything is posted? This applies to heads up and full ring when it comes to push fold? I always thought if you were in the bb, well the effective bb would be what is after the blinds and antes are posted.
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Old 03-06-2019, 01:12 PM   #8
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Nash charts use effective stack size, and effective stack size is the smallest stack before anything is posted,so in your example SB 9bb and BB 6bb, eff stack would be 6bb before blinds and antes, that means if you are on SB with 9bb you still use ranges for 6bb eff stack.
Afaik there is no ante in spins and heads ups on stars, idk about other sites. And yeah it will be important if ante is 10% or 12.5%, if antes are 12.5% in games you play Id use ranges from somewhere where they are made for 12.5% ant games.
Not sure why ranges are different on different sites, but Id say use looser ranges for pushing and tighter for calling, people in general tend to be tighter than charts, so using wider pushing ranges and tighter calling ranges makes sense.
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Old 03-06-2019, 10:23 PM   #9
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Okay so look at the stack size before blinds and antes.


Can others confirm that ante whether 10 or 12.5 percent is very important? The thing is if you use 12.5% antes... the push/fold range is very wide. But most importantly, the calling range is very wide. But is that still correct?


Well most of the sites use a 12.5% ante and not 10% ante.
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:20 PM   #10
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

10% and 12.5% ante charts are based on 9 players per table calculation. So Heads-up when the ante is 10% or 12%, really it is like 2-3% ante for a 9 player table when it is folded to you in SB.

So use 0% ante for HU, as the best approximation.

By the way, I would appreciate if someone could point us both to 2-3% ante charts if those are posted or can be generated somewhere...
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Old 03-06-2019, 11:56 PM   #11
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Can others confirm we are suppose to use 0% ante for HU? I never heard of this. So if blinds are 10000/20000 and ante is 2500... you still 0%? That doesn't seem correct because wouldn't that mean you are calling much tighter to an all in then if that is the case? Because in heads up in snapshove, you could make the ante 10 or 12.5 percent for heads up so wouldn't making it 0% be incorrect?
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Old 03-07-2019, 05:14 AM   #12
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x View Post
Can others confirm we are suppose to use 0% ante for HU?
Def no, if there is 10% ante than use nash with 10% and use 0% when there is no ante. Those charts are made for HU and 10% ante even with 2 players makes noticeable difference
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Old 03-09-2019, 03:37 AM   #13
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Okay so the holdemresources link i find interesting. So for basic push/fold that is the simplest one for heads up? I like the fact that say you have a certain hand like q8o and it shows what bb all in you can call up to and shove up to etc. I thought thats interesting compared to say a chart that shows every bb up to say 20bb of what to call or shove with etc.


Do others agree this is probably the best one to use? Also the ante one 10%...even if antes are 12.5 percent, that is not a big issue?


Because when you use snapshove and pushfoldcharts, when you do 10 vs 12.5 percent as ante size, well its definitely a bit looser with the 12.5 percent ante.
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Old 03-09-2019, 12:55 PM   #14
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Make sure you're not using these above 10bb effective stacks too. And understand what the equilibrium actually is. It's a fictitious game where only the SB can shove or fold, limps and minraises are not part of the option in this solved game, so you can't apply everything to the actual gameplay.
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Old 03-09-2019, 04:40 PM   #15
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Im confused with your statement. So don't look at push fold charts above 10bb? So if someone jams 12bb or 15bb or 18bb heads up in a mtt or sng which happens quite a bit... then what are you suppose to look at?


Example if a player jams 15bb, well you know a10 is a call etc. But say you are not sure if say q8s or q9s is a call at 15bb
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Old 03-09-2019, 05:32 PM   #16
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

So, these charts are only for an equilibrium when the small blind can only shove or fold. That's where the numbers on the chart come from.

If the small blind is limping some hands, minraising others, then the entire chart is irrelevant to you.

When you're in the BB, you can't control what options the SB is going to use. So if you get a once in awhile shove at say 17bb, you don't just look to Nash for guidance, it's unhelpful.

In an extreme example, say I shove one hand at 17bb, and it's AA. I limp/fold/minraise the rest. Your nash calling range is irrelevant vs my shoving strategy.

What you should do is figure out the hands that people regularly shove at those stack sizes in the games that you play, and then use some calculation software to determine your calling range. That would be your default play. You can then adjust your ranges if you can start to put people into different categories based on reads.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:29 PM   #17
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Okay but the holdemresources link with that chart, so if its a spin and go and anything heads up that has no ante, you look at the no ante chart.


But for everything else, you use the 10 percent ante? Well the sb could shove 50bb heads up if they wanted to. But if they jam 20bb which does happen, well can't you look at that chart and then say you have j9s and opponent jam and you look to see if its a call or not? According to the chart with the 10 percent ante, you can call a 15.4bb shove.


Well i just meant like the nash or general guideline. Example many players would jam over 10bb heads up. Such as 15bb or around there etc. Like i want to know which chart is best to call where its profitable assuming that player plays nash etc. Obviously if that player is much looser or tighter, you can adjust a bit such as okay this is normally a call to a 15bb jam. But because this player is very tight, well im not going to call with certain hands that are very borderline or even call up to 18bb etc. Is that correct or wrong?
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:31 AM   #18
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Re: Push Fold For Heads Up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x View Post
Like i want to know which chart is best to call where its profitable assuming that player plays nash etc.
If someone is playing nash, than nash is only chart which you should call, any other chart will be worse.

Closer you get to push/fold part of the game, more useful becomes nash.
If someone jams 15-20bb there is no chart which will tell you what you should call as game is far from push/fold.
So how do you figure out what to call vs os 20bb? You should take a look at what people are openshoving at that depth, make a range and than call everything that has 47,5%+(19bb/40bb) equity vs that range.
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