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problems with 3bets problems with 3bets

03-03-2011 , 08:47 AM
hey guys... i am playing heads up sng up to 34$ turbos on stars. i "think" i have a lots of problems wiht my preflop game.
i have problems with 3bets in both directions. in fact, i cant do anything against lots of 3 bets from villain and i personaly 3bet way too less.

i play only like abc against all the opponents, no matter if he is a reg, tight or supper aggressive. my only adjustment is that i dont raise that much the button when i got a lots of 3bets against me, but i dont call the 3 bets or 4bet as a bluff.

and if the opponent minraise me a lot, i only call hand with good playability and i only 3bet pockets and AJ+ for example.

i played against a reg as a homegame and he said it is a big big leak that i let me 3bet too often and that i 3bet too less and that my raisingsize with a 3bet is not correct. For example a 25/50 and villain openraises 100 i sometimes raise 350 with a good hand, to induce a push. he said thats absolute stupid.

i mean, i have 8% roi longtherm so far and i am happy about but in the past i am in a small downswing and then you are thinking about plays and so on.

you could say i am a bit afraid of 3betting, cause most opponents call anyway and i miss the flop too often and i dont wanna llose my prflop chips in the postflop game. thats the problem. And why should i call a2o against a 3bet even he is 3betting often? i cant play the flop very well then.

Where is my misthinking or something? What are my leaks though and how do you handle this?

for example, i 3bet KQ or T9s, he calls, i contibet even i miss, he raises or just flats and i have to give up. Thats so expensive then...
problems with 3bets Quote
03-03-2011 , 09:01 AM
if he 3bets too much, u can try 4bet or push with Ax, KJ....ofcourse if the blinds are high enough( dont push for 3bet in first level with KJ lol )
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03-03-2011 , 09:33 AM
i think there are a lot of strategies but i just dont know if i have big leaks or not...
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03-03-2011 , 12:34 PM
You're not 3b'ing too less, and you don't have to adapt how often you 3b to beat someone who is 3b'ing you. 3b bluffing readless at low stakes is kinda silly imo.

As for dealing with people who 3b you alot, there are a ton of adjustments you can make. 3 basic ones that you can use are:
-opening tighter
-4b shoving wider
-calling wider vs 3b's

If villain is pumping in a ton of chips OOP with weak holdings, taking his money isn't exactly rocket science
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03-03-2011 , 01:10 PM
IMO, the biggest problem with 3betting too little against a good opponent is that you won't be able to get any value from your strong hands. You need to consider how your 3betting range affects his 3bet calling range.

For instance, if you only 3bet very little, then having AJ in that range is terrible - it's turning a strong hand into a bluff 'cause you're never good when called. A good opponent realizes that your 3betting range is super strong, so he'll never flat you with any worse Ace.

If your opponent opens his button too wide, then he often doesn't have a hand that he can flat a 3bet with, so 3betting him as a bluff for fold-equity is very profitable. Since the 3bet is +EV in itself due to its fold-equity, there's also no need to proceed post-flop when called, you could also just check/fold when you miss.

As for the sizing, there's really no need to 3bet very big. In your example, where he minraises at 25/50, you allow him to play perfectly against you by 3betting to 350 and you're also putting yourself into a very awkward spot if you ever get flatted. At these stack-sizes it's perfectly fine to 3bet to just 250 or even 225.

In the past, I also 3bet very big, mostly making it 3x his size, sometimes even more, and I had the same problem, not knowing what to do when I got flatted. Recently, I changed my game to 3bet a lot smaller and to also make smaller c-bets, and now I'm feeling much more comfortable in reraised pots.

As for flatting, you're right, you should never defend with A2o - instead, pick a hand with good playability that's also not dominated so often, for instance 89s.
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03-03-2011 , 01:26 PM
I agree that 3 bet bluffing is generally unnecessary at low stakes. You will make most of your money when you flop a good hand and they cant get away from mid pair or whatever. I'm not entirely clear why I think this, but in my experience it has been more effective.

That said, at these limits I am generally 3 betting TJ+, K9+, any Ace and depending on stack sizes any pp. Of course I don't do this vs opponents with very low pfr and against opponents with high pfr I raise my range a little bit.

Perhaps your problem is not so much preflop as postflop. I find that players are very timid in 3 bet pots. A lot of times when you call with A2 or whatever you will get to check it down. Against most opponents folding A2 is ridiculous. When you three bet people will rarely bluff when you check to them on the flop. This allows you to show down Ace highs for cheap. I tend to continuation bet hands without much showdown value and check weak hands with some showdown value.
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03-03-2011 , 03:09 PM
Well, sure this may work at lower limits, but don't get too used to it.

3betting or flatting a 3bet with A2o is a huge leak once you get to the $50's or higher. At these limits, people won't let you check it down anymore - and once you face any action on an A-high board, you're dead.

And to make things worse, if the majority of your 3betting range is Ace-rag, people won't give you any credit on connected mid-card boards since you won't hit these very often.
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03-03-2011 , 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackoneill
3betting or flatting a 3bet with A2o is a huge leak once you get to the $50's or higher.
not really
problems with 3bets Quote
03-03-2011 , 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbfootball_84
not really
Ya, Ace high is an incredibly strong hand hu.
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03-03-2011 , 10:05 PM
still don't like flatting a 3bet with ace 2... actually don't think i ever do it, or ever have
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03-03-2011 , 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackoneill
Well, sure this may work at lower limits, but don't get too used to it.

3betting or flatting a 3bet with A2o is a huge leak once you get to the $50's or higher. At these limits, people won't let you check it down anymore - and once you face any action on an A-high board, you're dead.

And to make things worse, if the majority of your 3betting range is Ace-rag, people won't give you any credit on connected mid-card boards since you won't hit these very often.
Two scenarios that come to mind where it can still be very profitable would be against an opponent that folds to 3bets a lot and a situation where you just have a very wide 3bet range so the common "doesn't give enough value on Ax boards, bluffs you off your hand on non Ax boards too often" impact is not felt.

I mean if you're 3betting 40% of hands and your opponent is just folding any Ax board and playing back at non Ax boards you're not going to have to worry about the downside you mention with A2.
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03-03-2011 , 11:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealy Man
still don't like flatting a 3bet with ace 2... actually don't think i ever do it, or ever have
how about against those fkers that min 3bet half their hands? u telling me you never flated w A2 here even once in those spots?
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03-04-2011 , 03:33 AM
Oddly enough, at the low stakes, I find myself 3-betting alot, mainly because of how in love with limping all of their buttons the fishies are. 10-9o+. J9+. q9+. 99+ (I'm on the fence about 88.) I mean, in a 3bet pot, wouldn't it make sense to play it as you would any other raised pot, if it really inspires fear in you?

That's what I try to do, pretty much, especially in position, because randoms at these stakes never fold to 3bets.

Maybe this is a leak I have?
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03-04-2011 , 05:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbfootball_84
how about against those fkers that min 3bet half their hands? u telling me you never flated w A2 here even once in those spots?
Depends on how often they're doing it.

I usually treat these like a flat call unless they do it first time like 15+ hands in.

If they make it 2 times my open instead of min 3betting, then I start limping some hands that play well post-flop but that I don't want to flat a 3bet with.

It all depends on your stack-to-pot ratio on the flop. Flatting a 3bet with A2o is absolutely terrible if you only have 2 rounds of betting post-flop, but ok if you're deep enough that you don't have to play top pair for stacks.
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03-04-2011 , 05:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRy
I mean if you're 3betting 40% of hands and your opponent is just folding any Ax board and playing back at non Ax boards you're not going to have to worry about the downside you mention with A2.
Why do you need an Ace in this case ?

If your opponent never continues on any Ax board, then your hand doesn't matter - you having an Ace only slightly reduces the chance of him having one as well.

And if he's always folding on Ax, but playing back at non Ax boards, wouldn't it make much more sense to have a hand that could actually hit these non Ax boards ?

It my opponent plays back at me a lot on non Ax boards, then I'd rather have a hand that can hit these boards pretty hard, like suited connectors for instance.
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