That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing your views!

i miss the time when ppl argued about who/why/unfair/fair etc

not this "change title" ****

*not all of this is directed at your post, so don't take it personally please

I think that the community knowing about these groups is good. I think being secretive is bad.

I think using a word to describe them that most people auto think "drug cartels, murders, omg bad" is not the best way to do it.

There is also a flaw in the technical definition. Others have pointed some out, but these groups can play other members of the group, they can sit their life, make their playing time miserable if they so choose. The real life examples of your illegal groups do not do that.

Going one step further, these groups are good for the games. The reason I support them has nothing to do with friends (again, I have friends that can't get in, that haven't gotten in and that have gotten in, plenty in all categories). The reason I support them is that I think all the evidence we've seen shows that having every player with a half a brain sitting around and taking turns waiting for recreational players is not a recipe for a healthy or expanding game format. Why? Well, one main reason is that it removes a ton of skill and profit potential from the games. Having 200 people making 20k a year in the $100s is not that attractive to new players (and new players is how this game has grown in profit in recent years). I'd rather see the best 30 people making 60k a year, the next 50 making 50k a year and the next 40 making 30k a year, with the bottom end moving down and making 10-15k a year instead of that 20k. I think that rewards the skill in this game better and also makes the game far more attractive from people looking at the outside in.

Lets also look at higher stakes. If these groups are bad and not allowed and regs should just sit there avoiding each other, you'd see someone like gr33n with 300k profit, not 1.5 mil. You'd see guys like Olivier making far less each year (and a bunch of currently lower profit regs would make as much as them). That's terrible for the games. Nobody wants to play a game for profit and make low six figures if they are the very best, they want to see the best making 500k, 1 mil, 1.5 mil and that gets them excited and they pick HUSNGs to play instead of STTs or MTTs (and history has shown, the more popular the game, the far better it is for profit potential).

When you take the skill out of a game, when you turn professional play into socialism (everyone gets to play x recreational, we'll all take turns) it starts to destroy the game. So, fine, use the word cartel, but the other option is socialism (or we'll even say communism!). Cartel vs communism, your pick! (reality is neither word accurately describes either situation because of people's preconceived notions of what each word means... ).

I'm totally biased here too. I own a HUSNG site that depends on the game being healthy and profitable, so my stance is not what some of my friends want or experience, it's going to be what I think maximizes the chances of my site (and the game) being profitable for as long as possible.

And if you think casual players don't recognize profit, you're delusional (not necessarily you, but I've heard this from even very good players before). When 10bb super turbos came out, they were not nearly as popular as the 25bb super turbos that followed. Casual players aren't idiots, they want the chance to make money. Hell, I think people are starting to realize these days that many losing players have a lot of skills, some even the same skills as good regs. It's not that they are missing the strategy, it's that they tilt, they make bad decisions in real time, they have terrible lifestyles and emotions that impact their play, and the profit potential off of those errors is huge.

The whole idea of secrets and "if only we can stay the same and keep everyone out of the game and share the bad players" is backwards thinking that hurts this game. Popularize the game if you have the courage and confidence in yourself, because as long as you're one of the better players, you'll always profit more and more as the game grows in popularity.

I think it would be best if every reg realized on their own they should spend 20% of their games facing weaker regs right now, but that's not the reality. People get greedy and think 'well someone else will face that weak reg, I'll take the casual player' and pretty soon nobody is facing any regs (so many regs faced other regs single digit % of the time when we did the study last year). Groups a necessarily and natural step in ensuring that everyone makes the game more competitive and returns some of the valuable skill to it that keeps it healthier long term.

Yes, the technical meaning is always the same. But if you ask 10 people on the street what they think of when you use the word cartel, many will say mafia, killing, drug cartels, etc. That's the realistic part of my point. I'm not arguing the technical definition (except these regs are still playing each other when they want to, they aren't barred from that, unlike the illegal examples given).

Well put (though more accurately, blame the American people who have pushed their government to outlaw drugs so popular that nearby countries major markets revolve around bringing drugs into America).

Im not in the cartel and ive been seated all the time by the cartel.
All i can say is that regulars, unless the play in stakes with ton of fish, should protect their
lobby from another regular unless they are making zero profit playing him.

If a group is working well, is good for most of the players. Good for recs, because it's not like everyone wanna play against them. And good for all the regs that deserve to playing at that level.

I think the name shouldn't indicate any negative thing (like mafia, or illegal stuff), so it could be like 60s regs club, or 60s regs group (at 60s). It's good for poker economy, and good for every reg who's willing to prove that he belongs, and he wanna get better, and willing to improve.

Only problem with it, if it's not working well, but in time the natural selection will improve every group.

To expand on the above book, if people continue to call it cartels, that's fine, but it means a lot of people that don't read these forums everyday and aren't aware of the situation will just auto assume it is bad, not take the time to read what the groups are all about (this is where not being a secret really comes in btw) and make rash posts. Then me (or hopefully someone that articulates thoughts in shorter posts) has to take the time to respond with details about the groups already mentioned.

I'm not speculating here either. I spoke to a reg yesterday that previously posted against these groups. The reg messaged me about something else and during the conversation mentioned that he now understands what the groups are about, and while he's not in and doesn't necessarily like that he's not in, he understands the purpose of the groups and is not against them or outraged anymore. He isn't a guy that reads these forums but a few times a month tops so he's not staying on top of every post like many of us posting are. That's really my point about using the word cartel.

And as you say, many cartels in the world are illegal, but these groups are not (PS comments are in the PS thread but are not against these), so that further goes against using the word as an accurate description that people quick reading about the issue will get the right idea.

those groups are just a demonstration of how pokerstars fails to create a competitive environment due to rake distribution. if there were different rake in reg vs reg than in reg vs recreational gamers, this discussion and all those groups would be pointless. but instead of solving the matter they allow for sharky and borderline unethical formation of groups to exist.

Usually 100% on board with any argument that is better for recreational players, the game in general etc. because I feel like everyone benefits when the game experience is improved for recs.

That being said I think the 'zomggg using the word cartel or mafia is turrrible' thought process is complete nittery. Does not make the game look sketchy, scummy whatever the argument is.

Seems pretty dumb to tame it down. Seems even dumber to think the names of these organized groups are tarnishing husng. The average drooler fish isn't going to be reading up on this/giving a flying **** about the negative connotation the word cartel or mafia has, they just wanna get dealt cards and click buttons.

Only one Taxi company is allowed to serve Dulles International Airport outside of Washington DC... must be nice to own that company.

It seems like these cartels are the equilibrium point of the poker market.
Considering relative supply of regs (in terms of weak and stronger regs), the 'demand of fish' and other factors like rake etc.
I think the cartels will improve competition which benefits most of us and keeps the game evolving.
The connotation wheter maffia or cartel may be bad to attract new players or keep recs going, so better prevent that from happening instead of pages discussion whining how we should name it.
Oh and i love your post chicagory <3

make a poll and vote, lets get some democracy up in this, keep it real

+1

+1

even without a cartel rams would sit u at 200s and not give a ****.

rams is prob sad the cartel killed all his action

Where can be found the requierements to join the "cartels"?

$100 and higher groups are at this point not taking new members. Please wait until the summer when we will reconsider your application.

Not sure if this has ben questioned/answered already. At what point would the cartel leave a non-cartel member alone?

I suspect it might take a while - i'm still getting sat at the $100's after 1,600 tournaments and the cartel is down $6,100 in ev (and they've also run badly)

when you get in, if you dont than never

When the cartel will make an offer for a player to join?
Do you think will be players who beat the cartel long term?

What was Stars' response to the whole 'cartel' thing? I can't believe that it is actually allowed, especially seeing as it is done so publicly...

Be friends with one of the founders of the cartel or be staked by them.

^ well what can they really do about it? Battlenet maybe. Hypers is the only format that can really be exploited like this. Wouldn't be possible in turbos. Obviously one soloutiin is too start a competing group of players.

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