Once you build up some sample you can look into the EV pools such as Steel Phoenix mate. This makes play spins a whole lot easier as you do not need to focus on the $$ variance and results, just need to focus on playing your A game at the tables etc.

I think this is pretty much standard now for all of the Spin regs, as boy this format can be volatile

I knew about the staking sites. I was approached about it before but it all seemed so shady to me. I've never heard of the pools, I will have to look into that.

The game can be pretty wild. I am actually quite happy that I have maintained a decent CEV (now +65 over 140 games) over this run. The games are so soft because the villains don't fold their junk pre, they call c-bets with nothing, and they donk lead flops. But the same things make it tough when you keep missing flops and boards.

Question 1: I remember back in the day guys talking about how they managed a +100 CEV...what is a good CEV today at $10?

Question 2: Is it worth considering ranges in this format and how would you construct them? I mean, these guys seem to be playing any 2 in any situation...

This is officially the worst run I have ever experienced in Spins. Over the course of a few days, or 290 games, I have lost 40 buy-ins or $400 for an ROI of 10%. Over that span I have maintained a CEV of 42 but I am running way below EV in chips: I have won 15,000 less chips than I should have...so where I have a CEV of 42 chips per game, I am actually losing 50 chips per game.

It is a most frustrating time. I raise, get called by weaker hands that hit the flop while I miss the board completely. My cbets never get through, my double barrels get called down by middle pair and even lights - the things that make rec's so profitable when you make hands make them difficult when you don't! What can you do when you are constantly missing and no one folds?

'here is my chart for the period:




Is it a problem that the red non-showdown winning line is so low? How would I go about improving that when these guys call pre-lop raises with trash and wont fold post?

Well, that's it for me - I am tapping out. Can't take any more of this. Up to 296 games, CEV 41, and I've lost $460 in $10 spins and my chips won is now 17,700 below EV. I can't keep track of how many I actually won/lost because Party doesn't allow that in PT4, but that is a pretty impressive downswing over a small sample size.

I am actually surprised that I was able to maintain a decent CEV considering how bad things have been going. But this just scares me of even more. I mean, if I can go on a 46 game down-swing while maintaining a decent CEV, what happens when I get hit be EV variance?

I like the spins format but I can't just throw away my bankroll on them...

Hey man, I haven't had a chance to reply but have been keeping watch so thanks for explaining CEV for me.

Sounds like a pretty brutal patch you've had but it would be a shame to give up so quickly due to variance when you are playing a winning game. Could you not just drop down stakes for a bit until you build up some of the lost bankroll?

Just out of curiosity, how much would you be up before rakeback if you had been online with your CEV? It sounds like you would have won a lot of money.

Luckily for me I've been running a lot better but I've found that moving down stakes when I run bad really helps with my sanity. I dropped right to $.25 Spins to start with, quickly moved to $1 then told myself once I grind to X bankroll I can move to $2 and if I swing back down to below X bankroll I have to move back down to $1. I did the same with $2 to $5 and have now taken a couple of stabs at $5 spins but had to move back down. Hoping to take another shot at $5 shortly.



I've played about 550 tournaments / 10000 hands and My CEV is exactly 100 right now with an ROI of 3.45, net won at $42 and I think I've made over $100 from RB as well so although it's small fry I'm pretty upbeat with it at the moment.

Part of me kinda wants to get a bit of a downswing out of the way just so that I can see how I react but maybe just a bit of a downswing rather than one as brutal as yours lol.

@ Silky -

Whilst the above may look bad in the short term, i would not even class this as variance in the spin and go format. The sample size is small, as well as the amount of buyin's lost. Appreciate 46 bi's stings but this is why it is always reccomended to have a very large bankroll when playing spins. It also works both ways, it is possible to upswing 50 buyins in the same period of games etc.

The most important thing to consider here is your CEV, which has been nice even whilst going through a downswing. What i would reccomend would be to drop to the 5$ level and build up a sample size of games with less stress to your bankroll. This way once you have this sample you can look to apply to one of the EV Pools. If you was in an EV pool the above scenario would not make any difference because you would receive the buyins lost back at the end of the period in relation to your working CEV. It is a lot easier on the mindset and i think majority of those who look to take Spin and Go's seriously consider some form of EV pool option.

Just my 2 cents, you have to do whats best for you. Maybe give it a couple of days for the bad run to sting a little less and think about the options best for you in the future GLGL

It is not really quickly - I've played thousands of spins games over the years. Not like it is a rash decision.

Not interested in moving down stakes. Bankroll isn't an issue and if I am going to move down stakes I will just go back to playing cash games where I am a winning player...

According to your chart you would not be a 100 cev player. What is your actual chips won in all-in equity? like the raw number...

I have played a few spin games today but it is more of the same. Raise, miss everything, fold...repeat until I get into shove/fold land then get it in, get bad beat and i'm out.

I got into a 10x...was dominating. Had 16bb with villain at 10. I jammed with A9s he has A10 and holds...next hand I get it in with A4 he has A7 and im out. During this run I am losing every lip, getting it in bad with strong hands, and getting bad beat a lot. It's the **** trifecta.

Fair enough, maybe in a few weeks time I'll be having the same problems as you but it definitely helps for me being able to move up and down stakes. Just out of curiosity, can you tell how much you should have won if you were running online with CEV?

I'm not 100% sure if this is what you're asking but this is where my CEV is now showing at 99. I'm not sure how good that is at these low stakes but if it's particularly good then I'm pretty sure I wont be able to keep that up as I'm a beginner to this format. I guess if these are particularly volatile and I haven't had a proper downswing yet then I am probably just running really good at the moment. I definitely don't want to get carried away and start thinking I'm a good player only to get the wind sucked out of me when I hit a bad downswing.

Not sure about that program. Chip EV should be right, but it doesn't show the actual EV for chips won....as for how much you should have won, it says 3%, but that seems very low if your CEV is 100...

So I decided to give it another shot and things were going quite well. My EV was up, my actually winnings were ahead of my EV and then...

I lost 6 tournaments in a row in a similar scenario. Late in the tournament, both of us are in the 10bb range, I get AA 3x, KK 1x, QQ 1x, and JJ 1x. I min raise on the button and get called...in all 6 I got beat by either a flopped straight or a flopped 2 pair.

Following that things really went for a ****. I am constantly making no hands. Like going through multiple games making nothing but bottom or middle pair, and it is like every time I get it in I am behind - my Avg All-In Equity has dropped over the last 55 games from ~54% down to 47%. I just can't get it in good, and the rare time I do it is marginal and I end up getting bad beat.

Check out this chart...




Over these 55 tournaments I am running all-in adjusted at -5,152, for a CEV of -94, and notice that over the last 30 games, since about game 20, I dropped 7600 EV chips, so that is down swing in CEV of -212 over 35 games. And notice also that even as I am running like dog **** in EV I am still running way below EV - I should have lost 5100 chips but I actually lost 8000. So now, over the total of 538 tournaments I have played since returning to spins, I have a CEV of 40, but while I should have won 21,600 chips I have actually won 10,000...

Yeah, that sucks man, sounds like it might be best to have a few days off or play cash for a bit then decide if you wanna take another stab at it. I think sometimes if you have a real bad run you can start questioning your game and potentially start over adjusting in the wrong places, part of me thinks this is what happened to me just before I gave up on the grind all those years ago.

Just something that I noticed that may or may not be worth a second thought, you were saying that people are just calling down your bets with junk. Whilst there's a lot of people that will call light I am still finding quite a lot of situations to bluff and seem to be having some success and an upwards facing red line, do you think maybe you could have over adjusted to this and now not bluffing enough because you think people are calling too light? I'm just thinking that could potentially be partly responsible for your red line? Just a thought like.

I think the CEV issue may have been something to do with including other games in my stats or something. Teambas suggested that I should filter it to 0 - 3 max and this somehow seems to have bought my CEV down to 68 which I guess may be more realistic. ROI is up as well, although I have won a bit today.

Thanks for the input!

Doesn't that sort of make it worse? I mean, that makes it a **** show on a much more magnificent scale. I understand that it can go both ways, but it never seems to go the other war. When I have a really good run of +EV play I run like dog **** in chips won...when I have a bad run of EV I still run like ****. There is never a time where either I run like crap in EV and still profit, or run well and actually win.

I always tell myself that EV is all that matters....to not focus on results. That's great when you are maintaining a CEV of 100, or even 60...but when, like now, I am running nearly -6000 ev in chips, and and still running 3000 chips below ev winning...

in the future I will look into pools - just don't have enough time to build up a big sample size right now.

Not really,

Because i can guarantee as much as you think your game is the exact same when you are winning money as it is when you are losing money but this is not the case. I guarantee that during this downswing period you have made mistakes, you have deviated from your natural strategy and you have done things you would not normally do when you are +5 buyin's ahead of the session etc. This is natural and happens to the majority of players.

You have a period whereby you are losing around 7000 chips in 36 games, this is not just set ups and variance. This is mistakes and tilt ( even subconscious ) in this sample. I say subconscious because i am not saying i think you are open jamming 72o every hand etc because you are frustrated but i guarantee 100% if you honestly review this period of games compared to a session whereby the money has not effected you, you will see the differences in plays you are making

You have to remember spins is a volume game, variance is big, it is a fast paced 500 chip format. So if you play 500 games per month, you will be effected by variance on the negative end a lot more than someone who plays 5000 tournaments a month etc. You can check out a tool called Swongswim, where you can see the variance that you can expect etc. Its a free tool and good to have an understanding of the nature of this beast

Also, even the best players in this format have these periods, it is unlikely that a spin player crushes the field every single month for huge profit, even the most seasoned can have extended downswings, break even and losing months etc. Constantly running into coolers, negative card distribution, non A game plays etc. It is an interesting format for sure

It is also worth noting it is not necessarily a format which is easy to make real money net won on, which is why the EV pools exist and there is an abudance of players in there. You only have to look at the multiplier settings and the amount of 2 x you will spin on sites etc, given an average ITM of around like 37-38% etc, it is not that hard to see where the negative losses comes from. Most players are not lucky enough to see many big multipliers etc too

Keep working mate, but be mindful of your emotions and how you are feeling during sessions because i guarantee this is effecting your game even if you think they are not GLGL

Again, I appreciate the input!

Ya IÂ’m sure I made errors and I always do. Even when I am running 100+ I can guarantee I make bad plays. The only real deviation I can think of was tightening up - I sort of tightened up my tame pre bc I was missing everything, Cbet bluffs were not getting through and guys were calling down my triple barrels with junk. I probably could have been more patient vs what turns out to be maniacs.

I do a lot of jamming pre with Ax out of position, especially below 20bb and is standard shove my small and medium pocket pairs when out of position. During this bad run it seemed like every time I shoved AX the Btn had me beat - every time I got called when shoving pockets I came up against bigger pockets. It isnÂ’t hard to drop 5000-6000 in ev when you get pocket pairs in bad vs higher pockets - in that 55 game run i got my pockets in bad against other pairs 13x.

Things turned around, at least in the realm of EV. Over about my last hundred IÂ’ve maintained a +100cev. Unfortunately my chips won continues to drop below EV. I am now about 14,000 chips below EV since starting to play again.


Ya, I understand what you are saying about variance, sample size etc. I can do well playing Spins but I just donÂ’t think itÂ’s the formate for me. I mean, even if I maintain a good CEV here I likely win more playing NL50 cash...

I will keep going for now and see where I end up.

well things have stabilized somewhat. Ive maintained a cev of 50 over 900 tournaments and while i am still running about 25% below ev i am profiting anyhow.

Thing are continuing to go well in EV world. I May, over just under 500 games, I have a CEV of 67 and over my last 400 games I have a CEV of 90. The good news is the green line is starting to come in line with winnings...

This is the YTD results: CEV 60 over 944 games.




So how many games do you have to play before you can start relying on the numbers?

Has this happened to anyone else ? Did you get paid out. The spin and go wheel at BetMGM poker Ontario landed on $60k and then went to a $10 game. The sparkles on the grey box around the $60k only appears when it’s landed on the final amount. I managed to get a screen shot.

God, I am in the middle of the most annoying run...game all go like this...either:\

1) I dominate these mules until I get them below 12bb. I get a premium hand, they raise and I jam, or they jam and I call and they have me dominated.

2) I flop the nuts - like a 6 high flush, bet all streets and get counterfeited. I am constantly running into situations where my straights end up in a push because of the runout, or have 2 pair counterfeited by 1 to a straight coming on the river.

3) tremendous amount of jamming PP vs higher PP.

4) and the coup de gras - when I do manage to get it in good it's a never ending stream of bad beats.


It is so frustrating. Playing with guys who won't fold a hand. They will call down 3 streets with bottom pair...but when I get them down to push/fold area they crush me.


I just checked PT$: Today I have gone All-In and been called 45x. I have a total all-in equity of 51% and have won 14/45.

Why is it frustrating playing vs players who call down 3 streets with bottom pair? This is awesome

Just do not bluff them :P

I dont mind them calling me down with crap when I have the nuts, but what happens on the 2/3 of the time that you miss the flop and these guys pot size donk bet, or check raise the flop with bottom pair weak kicker? You can only fold soo many time before you are out of chips! But the frustration was when I get these guys down to like 9bb, get them all in with A10 etv, they are constantly showing up with KK, QQ, Ak etc.

This whole week has been very frustrating. For most of the week I had a hard time getting it in good. My CEV basically flat-lined, jumping up and down, while I ran well below EV. Over the last few days my EV has gone back up - over the last 67 games I've got a CEV of 70 for 4200 chips, but my actual winnings while I run ever more below EV - 6600 chips below.


When am I going to get a streak of good EV that materialized in actual profits?

You adjust to exploit your opponent's play. If they are only calling your shoves with exceptionally strong hands then it may be profitable to shove with any two cards.

Yup - I jam more when they are tight and vice versa. I just played a game which is the perfect replication of what happens to me...

10x multiplier..

After getting below 10bb early I start jamming anything decent because guys are right. I make it up to about 12bb then...

3way, BTN folds, SB chip leader limps and I call with J10o. Long story short I turn a straight and double up on a guy who limped QQ.

Next hand, both villains below 8bb, I get A5o on BTN and jam it and both call - SB has AJ, BB has KK. (it is remarkable how often I win a big pot to get a guy below 10bb and on the next hand he gets a monster!)

Few hands later, now its heads up. I am ~12bb villain has 7. I jam KQo from BTN he calls with A7o and holds

Next I have Q8s and he jams. I call, he shows J7o and eliminates me. Pattern just repeats over and over again.

FFS i dont expect to win every game, or every time I have chip dominance, but goddamn, it would be nice to have a day where I am not running thousands of chips below EV.

And it goes on and on and on...

- dude limp button, SB calls, I jam from the BB with A2o. Btn calls - shows 22. of course it has to be 22...

- same game, now I am down to 5bb, I jam AKo from SB and BB calls with A8. Board goes 4 clubs and I lose.

- next game, 3way, I have 27bb, villains both have 11bb. Btn limp with A5s , I jam with A7s and he calls - we split the pot
- same game, I have 2bb, villains have 8...I jam A7o vs QJo...board goes 4 clubs and I lose
- same game, I jam 109o for 7bb and lose to A4o
- same game, own to 4bb I jam J8s and lose to K8o and i'm out.

-next game, maniac jammer villain heads-up. After winning a big pot, and after he has gone all-in like 5x in a row, I limp A2o, he raises and I jam on him. He calls with 86o and the board comes out 7-7-7-3-8 and he wins.

At this point I am going to tap out, at least until I have time to look into EV pools etc. I am just sick of the constant bad-beats...of constantly, every day running below EV...of maintaining a really go CEV to make no money.

What's your charts look like pal? I'll be honest, I think it's sometimes human nature to think that everythings going against you, I've been feeling the same most of this month but I don't believe the cards are picking on me, I think it's selective memory on my part.

Just for example I was getting upset because whenever I shoved light as short stack it seemed like I was running into ace x's then I realised that I wasn't always running into Ace X when I shoved light but people were folding every time they didn't have a strong pair or ace X type hand so I only noticed the AX's etc.

It felt so harsh recently but my CEV / green line are where they should be so I feel like you've gotta take the rough with the smooth. CEV is just about heading in the right direction so I'll carry on and try to focus on improving my game rather than getting upset about how it seems to be screwing me over.

When you look at small samples the swings can and will be pretty brutal. Play with proper bankroll so you can handle the swings and grind it out instead of focusing on how bad you run.