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Old 08-18-2020, 08:52 PM   #7301
silky28
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

I use Nash more as a framework than a rule and I really only start jamming below 10bb and only with 22+ Ax, and some Kx. Below 7bb I open it up more.

Of those all-ins I mentioned only the first was above 10bb (just above) but I mean AQo is a jam at 15bb, no? The rest were below 10Bb averaging at about 7.
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Old 08-18-2020, 09:24 PM   #7302
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Why would you open jam AQ at 15bb? It's not that it's -EV, it's that it's worse than other options such as minraising or limping.

It's also worth mentioning, that picking and choosing what to do using NASH charts is an incorrect implementation of the charts. They are for a game where you can ONLY shove or fold preflop (and therefore your opponent can only call or fold). If you start changing up some of the hands on the chart that you should jam and start limping or minraising, you're no longer playing NASH in the small blind, you're just sometimes using a chart that represents optimal play under different circumstances to justify a decision. A better approach would be to jam hands that are best to be jammed, don't try to use a chart like NASH that is really a misapplication. It's so widely used bc it's basically a crutch for players, a way to not have to "think" about a decision and to feel good/confident about it. But it's a lot of false confidence imo. Think about what is best with each hand, such as your AQo at 15bbs, and why you'd make the play you would make.

I think the biggest takeaway here for you is that you can find better actions than jamming at 7-8bb+ from the small blind against your opponents with many hands.

That's not the original question you asked, but it 1) potentially improves your expectation and 2) if your expectation improves then everything is better on avg (downswings aren't as bad, etc.).

Last edited by ChicagoRy; 08-18-2020 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 08-19-2020, 01:24 AM   #7303
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Best sites to grind spins that isn't Stars? Thanks!
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Old 08-20-2020, 08:15 AM   #7304
silky28
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRy View Post
Why would you open jam AQ at 15bb? It's not that it's -EV, it's that it's worse than other options such as minraising or limping.

It's also worth mentioning, that picking and choosing what to do using NASH charts is an incorrect implementation of the charts. They are for a game where you can ONLY shove or fold preflop (and therefore your opponent can only call or fold). If you start changing up some of the hands on the chart that you should jam and start limping or minraising, you're no longer playing NASH in the small blind, you're just sometimes using a chart that represents optimal play under different circumstances to justify a decision. A better approach would be to jam hands that are best to be jammed, don't try to use a chart like NASH that is really a misapplication. It's so widely used bc it's basically a crutch for players, a way to not have to "think" about a decision and to feel good/confident about it. But it's a lot of false confidence imo. Think about what is best with each hand, such as your AQo at 15bbs, and why you'd make the play you would make.

I think the biggest takeaway here for you is that you can find better actions than jamming at 7-8bb+ from the small blind against your opponents with many hands.

That's not the original question you asked, but it 1) potentially improves your expectation and 2) if your expectation improves then everything is better on avg (downswings aren't as bad, etc.).
Thanks for your reply. I do not automatically jam anything at anytime, other than when I am like below 10BB.

And things have not improved. Over the last 100 games I have gone -8000 and my all-in equity has again dropped. And I have been keeping track of my all-in because this is getting out of line. Of the last 35 times I have gone all-in and been called I have come up against pocket pairs 26 times. This is impossible. In one match I went all-in 4x, 3x with pocket pairs and I was dominated on each one.

How am I supposed to maintain a CEV in this situation? I mean, its not as if I am going nuts and just popping off all-ins. I am getting chip leads, grinding them down to like 6 or 7 BB, pushing all-in with AK and getting slaughtered by AA. And speaking of that, today alone I have come up against AA 8x when going all-in.

I am not writing this as a whine. I really don't care about results from a win/loss perspective. I could care less when my AA gets cracked, or when my AJ gets killed by A2, I am concerned that I am suddenly getting it in bad pretty much all the time; I am only concered with CEV. I mean, what am I supposed to do when I or my opponent are in single digit blind, push/fold situations and even my A10 + are bad? How can I maintain cev in this situation?

Edit: Just happened again - was ground down to 4BB, jam all-in with 10-10, get smacked by AA

Last edited by silky28; 08-20-2020 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 08-20-2020, 08:45 AM   #7305
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

awesome reply from ChicagoRy.
in spins 5-10bb eff. is plenty more options than pushfolding. those thin little edges come out there the most.

silky28, use those words wisely and ask solid questions, dont waste your and others time by writing down something that is very common in spins. dont focus on things that u cannot change.
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Old 08-20-2020, 11:23 AM   #7306
silky28
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

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Originally Posted by evqualizer View Post
awesome reply from ChicagoRy.
in spins 5-10bb eff. is plenty more options than pushfolding. those thin little edges come out there the most.

silky28, use those words wisely and ask solid questions, dont waste your and others time by writing down something that is very common in spins. dont focus on things that u cannot change.
I am just baffled here. How do I go from a CEV of 55ish over the last 1000 or so hands to a CEV of -50. I mean, its not as if my CEV is just dropping. It has crashed. My all-in adjusted over the last 2 days is -11,500 over the last 200 games.
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Old 08-20-2020, 11:30 AM   #7307
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

ee. variance. is a bish aye.
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Old 08-20-2020, 12:53 PM   #7308
silky28
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

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ee. variance. is a bish aye.
Maybe my problem is that I think of variance as a sort of should of won but didnít thing...like the variance that shows when AA gets cracked by 2-3 off. Letís assume I am a working 100 cEV player (which I am not) it would not be unheard of to have 200-300 round swings where your all-in equity adjusted is actually negative, even substantially negative?
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:03 AM   #7309
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Ok, new topic.

How do you all deal with the maniacs who constantly jam all-in? Basically I keep folding until I get a premium hand and jam it on them. The problems are: 1) I lose a lot of chips waiting for the premium hands 2) when I finally do jam I am often getting it in bad. It is really annoying to wait and wait and finally get AJ and come up against AQ on someone who has jammed the last 15 hands. Am I handing this situation right?

Also, when things do work out - when I do get the premium hand and defeat the maniac - I find that my adjusted equity will usually be in the negative. I guess the + equity from the Jam does not make up for all of the folds. Is there a way to combat this?

Last edited by silky28; 08-22-2020 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:29 PM   #7310
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

I think you have to be willing to get it in with a non premium vs these guys. But the thing is that they differ. Some people go all in every hand. Some go all in for the first few, then slow down. Some realize that after you've folded for some hands, and are now limping, that it might be a trap, some are oblivious to that.

My first suggestion would be - don't wait for a premium like AJ. If the opponent is going all in every hand, you should be happy to call it off with A2 or KT.
Second, don't put them in a box, don't automatically think that if the guy went all in for a few hands, he won't change his game. Try to find ways to exploit them.
Third, try limp trapping vs them. If he is going all in every hand and you adjust by folding your buttons, try limping in and see if he's the type that doesn't care and just keeps on jamming or if he's aware that you might be trapping and slows down. If he slows down, you can incorporate some limps, maybe some raises. But yeah, trap them. Don't just go all in with your premium, he might realize that you've got a hand (some doesn't care though), innocently limp your premium and see him jam over you.
Forth, be willing to use more push fold deep yourself. Jam that KTo at 15 or 20.

Limp trap, push fold yourself and be aware of your opponent. They differ. Print money. Don't make too much conclusions by short term results. Play more and you'll get better vs them and others.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:42 PM   #7311
rickroll
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

What's with this meta I'm running into with guys minclicking it back preflop, I assumed it was pretty nutted but going to a bunch of slowdowns I'm often seeing is a random range

My sample is pretty small though, curious what trends you guys feel about this and more importantly if this is something I should do
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Old 08-23-2020, 11:38 AM   #7312
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

It's pretty random, rickroll. Maybe a little weighted towards some Ax hands, but overall pretty random. Definitely not nutted. And no, don't do that. Smallest non-ai 3bets you can make could be HU at very shallow stack depths. I usually don't do anything smaller than reraising a minraise to 3.5bbs at like 14-15bbs. Stick to the usual 3bet sizings by reraising to 5-6bb blind vs blind when deep (go bigger vs 3x opens, like 7-8.25bbs). You can make it smaller when shallow again - like 4-4.5bbs at let's say 14-16bb effective. Rough guidelines.

I'd say start by 3betting non-ai only nuts. AA-JJ. By your question, it seems that you are playing very small stakes and you don't need to bluff there. People will go crazy vs your 3bets, be aware of that. Try trapping them by 3betting with your nuts and then checking the flop to them when you are out of position if the flop is not too dangerous and see them go crazy with nothing all day every day.
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Old 08-24-2020, 12:36 AM   #7313
rickroll
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
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It's pretty random, rickroll. Maybe a little weighted towards some Ax hands, but overall pretty random. Definitely not nutted. And no, don't do that. Smallest non-ai 3bets you can make could be HU at very shallow stack depths. I usually don't do anything smaller than reraising a minraise to 3.5bbs at like 14-15bbs. Stick to the usual 3bet sizings by reraising to 5-6bb blind vs blind when deep (go bigger vs 3x opens, like 7-8.25bbs). You can make it smaller when shallow again - like 4-4.5bbs at let's say 14-16bb effective. Rough guidelines.

I'd say start by 3betting non-ai only nuts. AA-JJ. By your question, it seems that you are playing very small stakes and you don't need to bluff there. People will go crazy vs your 3bets, be aware of that. Try trapping them by 3betting with your nuts and then checking the flop to them when you are out of position if the flop is not too dangerous and see them go crazy with nothing all day every day.
ty, yeah this was my assumption and indeed am playing from 2-15 on acr (gotta play a wide range because sometimes only certain stakes are running or a certain stake has such a limited pool at that moment that it's you and the same reg you'd prefer not to play with every time)

only have a little bit of time these days to play micros for the lols and no time for real study so just grinding spins and it's been pretty fun

this has been a good thread where I'm able to confirm or question my assumptions and hadn't seen anything written about guys minclicking it back - it seemed like a huge leak (especially since it's usually hu oop) but it happens enough that I couldn't rule out that it had certain advantages I wasn't able to recognize
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