** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

[jinjerjohn]

After reading abarone and the posts about smartspin above I started thinking about what could be the answer.

Could a term be added by PokerStars that you have to notify them if you join a cosching/staking site and then they could monitor the tables to see who is avoiding who and impose punishments accordingly?

With the size of some of these stables some player(s) will obviously fall out with the stable and be willing to out players helping to keep players and stables honest.

Maybe PokerStars says stables are allowed but have to email them lists weekly of everyone they stake/coach so they can monitor the spins registration process. Stables found "cheating" risk getting all their players punished.

Harsh times call for harsh solutions.

[tittenmaus69]

a good algorithmus could do the work. it could compare all players vs all players with playtime and i think even after couple hundreds of games, it should be obv when players never play against each other in the same grindtime. i hope stars has something like this already set up.

[WateryBoil]

i think its not so much that its obvious they are doing it, or you could create something that would reveal it, but that stars just doesnt care. its not technically illegal like they said. thats the sad part.

[beet]

Originally Posted by jinjerjohn

After reading abarone and the posts about smartspin above I started thinking about what could be the answer.

Could a term be added by PokerStars that you have to notify them if you join a cosching/staking site and then they could monitor the tables to see who is avoiding who and impose punishments accordingly?

With the size of some of these stables some player(s) will obviously fall out with the stable and be willing to out players helping to keep players and stables honest.

Maybe PokerStars says stables are allowed but have to email them lists weekly of everyone they stake/coach so they can monitor the spins registration process. Stables found "cheating" risk getting all their players punished.

Harsh times call for harsh solutions.

You wouldn't even necessarily need people to disclose their relationship to backers if they are sending transfers on stars.

2 players playing the same games at the same time, who are never seated together while both receiving transfers from the same backers would be enough to connect them and see there is something happening off the tables.

[watergun7]

Originally Posted by WateryBoil

i think its not so much that its obvious they are doing it, or you could create something that would reveal it, but that stars just doesnt care. its not technically illegal like they said. thats the sad part.

No. Who are "they"?

The following types of tools and services are prohibited:

...

Any tool or service that is targeted towards the manipulation of opponents in games in which you are unable to choose a specific table to play on, such as Spin & Go’s

From https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/ under "In general, what kinds of tools and services are prohibited?"

[ChicagoRy]

Originally Posted by beet

You wouldn't even necessarily need people to disclose their relationship to backers if they are sending transfers on stars.

2 players playing the same games at the same time, who are never seated together while both receiving transfers from the same backers would be enough to connect them and see there is something happening off the tables.

In the short term, yes. In the long term, many will just do transfers off site, and just use deposit/cashout options, so Stars would only see people depositing and cashing out as normal.

There are probably other solutions worth considering, but p2p patterns (which are obviously used now by security at times to help investigations) are not a long term reliable way to fully identify relationships.

[PaulyJames200x]

A lot has been mentioned about cev here. So that term and thus the number would tell if you are a winning player or losing player correct? If so, how do i find out what my number is? I use Holdem manager 2.


Someone also mention it should be so and so for a particular stake such as this number is good for 7s but now 30s?


So does this mean in holdem manager 2, looking at your bb/100 in stack size is completely useless for spin and go?

[PaulyJames200x]

On a related topic. Is there any pro/con on playing spin and goes on stars vs party since they have pretty much the same stakes?

[ChicagoRy]

What level? Stars is widely accepted as being better at catching cheaters. At the low stakes it's likely plenty soft too.

Mid to higher stakes might have other considerations (playerpool skill for Stars, playerpool availability for Party).

[evcrusher]

Is there any point in contacting winamax and reporting the obvious expresso bots? I mean they basically MUST be aware.

[ChicagoRy]

Originally Posted by evcrusher

Is there any point in contacting winamax and reporting the obvious expresso bots? I mean they basically MUST be aware.

Absolutely. Rarely do sites actually like the bots, but most sites underinvest in security, so they will use their resources based on a few factors, one being how many people are complaining about something.

[GTExploit]

Originally Posted by jinjerjohn

After reading abarone and the posts about smartspin above I started thinking about what could be the answer.

Could a term be added by PokerStars that you have to notify them if you join a cosching/staking site and then they could monitor the tables to see who is avoiding who and impose punishments accordingly?

With the size of some of these stables some player(s) will obviously fall out with the stable and be willing to out players helping to keep players and stables honest.

Maybe PokerStars says stables are allowed but have to email them lists weekly of everyone they stake/coach so they can monitor the spins registration process. Stables found "cheating" risk getting all their players punished.

Harsh times call for harsh solutions.

Agreed that something should be done, but didnt most of these guys in stables join for coaching and financial backing and not because they wanted to cheat? Maybe they only started to cheat because their stablemasters told them to and they had to follow orders. Maybe the stablemasters even told the horse they are allowed to do such cheating as queue system and collusion using excuses that others are also doing it? Many of them are not allowed to leave because of the length of their ridiculous contracts that can easily take over 2 years to complete. Are you sure just banning everyone inside a stable just for being a part of it is a solution? I dont know if ruining many poker players careers because their greedy stablemasters just wanted all the money and are fine with their horse cheating is the solution.

[ChicagoRy]

GTExploit, there is no way you can excuse players for cheating because their backer told them to cheat or others in their group are cheating.

Most non backing situational cheating also takes place in group form, people building illegal software, illegal queing, it all requires more than one person in almost every case to participate.

A backing contract is also no excuse. Even in a regular job with a very clear, standard contract, your boss telling you to do something illegal isn't an excuse and doesn't absolve you from blame.

You're right about people being greedy, but for some reason you're excusing one of the main parties to the cheating.

[GTExploit]

Originally Posted by ChicagoRy

GTExploit, there is no way you can excuse players for cheating because their backer told them to cheat or others in their group are cheating.

Most non backing situational cheating also takes place in group form, people building illegal software, illegal queing, it all requires more than one person in almost every case to participate.

A backing contract is also no excuse. Even in a regular job with a very clear, standard contract, your boss telling you to do something illegal isn't an excuse and doesn't absolve you from blame.

You're right about people being greedy, but for some reason you're excusing one of the main parties to the cheating.

Agreed. But in some situations there are people in stables who did not do anything wrong but got banned simply for affiliation to the stable or such groups of people. If somebody actually cheats in some way, then they absolutely must be banned because they knew what they were doing and must face the consequences. But if somebody does not cheat but they get banned anyways because someone else or another group of people in the same stable was found cheating, that is not fair to those “innocent” players in my opinion. This is what I meant by saying that banning everybody in a stable for a few people’s actions seems unfair, which some people here have suggested as the solution.

[youngdaggerdick]

Originally Posted by evcrusher

Is there any point in contacting winamax and reporting the obvious expresso bots? I mean they basically MUST be aware.

who are the obvious expresso bots ?