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Old 02-13-2019, 02:06 AM   #6951
jinjerjohn
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

After reading abarone and the posts about smartspin above I started thinking about what could be the answer.

Could a term be added by PokerStars that you have to notify them if you join a cosching/staking site and then they could monitor the tables to see who is avoiding who and impose punishments accordingly?

With the size of some of these stables some player(s) will obviously fall out with the stable and be willing to out players helping to keep players and stables honest.

Maybe PokerStars says stables are allowed but have to email them lists weekly of everyone they stake/coach so they can monitor the spins registration process. Stables found "cheating" risk getting all their players punished.

Harsh times call for harsh solutions.
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Old 02-13-2019, 06:08 AM   #6952
tittenmaus69
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

a good algorithmus could do the work. it could compare all players vs all players with playtime and i think even after couple hundreds of games, it should be obv when players never play against each other in the same grindtime. i hope stars has something like this already set up.
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Old 02-13-2019, 02:57 PM   #6953
WateryBoil
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

i think its not so much that its obvious they are doing it, or you could create something that would reveal it, but that stars just doesnt care. its not technically illegal like they said. thats the sad part.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:27 PM   #6954
beet
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by jinjerjohn View Post
After reading abarone and the posts about smartspin above I started thinking about what could be the answer.

Could a term be added by PokerStars that you have to notify them if you join a cosching/staking site and then they could monitor the tables to see who is avoiding who and impose punishments accordingly?

With the size of some of these stables some player(s) will obviously fall out with the stable and be willing to out players helping to keep players and stables honest.

Maybe PokerStars says stables are allowed but have to email them lists weekly of everyone they stake/coach so they can monitor the spins registration process. Stables found "cheating" risk getting all their players punished.

Harsh times call for harsh solutions.
You wouldn't even necessarily need people to disclose their relationship to backers if they are sending transfers on stars.

2 players playing the same games at the same time, who are never seated together while both receiving transfers from the same backers would be enough to connect them and see there is something happening off the tables.
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Old 02-13-2019, 06:20 PM   #6955
watergun7
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by WateryBoil View Post
i think its not so much that its obvious they are doing it, or you could create something that would reveal it, but that stars just doesnt care. its not technically illegal like they said. thats the sad part.
No. Who are "they"?

Quote:
The following types of tools and services are prohibited:

...

Any tool or service that is targeted towards the manipulation of opponents in games in which you are unable to choose a specific table to play on, such as Spin & Go’s
From https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/ under "In general, what kinds of tools and services are prohibited?"
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:34 PM   #6956
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by beet View Post
You wouldn't even necessarily need people to disclose their relationship to backers if they are sending transfers on stars.

2 players playing the same games at the same time, who are never seated together while both receiving transfers from the same backers would be enough to connect them and see there is something happening off the tables.
In the short term, yes. In the long term, many will just do transfers off site, and just use deposit/cashout options, so Stars would only see people depositing and cashing out as normal.

There are probably other solutions worth considering, but p2p patterns (which are obviously used now by security at times to help investigations) are not a long term reliable way to fully identify relationships.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:38 PM   #6957
PaulyJames200x
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

A lot has been mentioned about cev here. So that term and thus the number would tell if you are a winning player or losing player correct? If so, how do i find out what my number is? I use Holdem manager 2.


Someone also mention it should be so and so for a particular stake such as this number is good for 7s but now 30s?


So does this mean in holdem manager 2, looking at your bb/100 in stack size is completely useless for spin and go?
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:45 PM   #6958
PaulyJames200x
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

On a related topic. Is there any pro/con on playing spin and goes on stars vs party since they have pretty much the same stakes?
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Old 02-15-2019, 02:35 AM   #6959
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

What level? Stars is widely accepted as being better at catching cheaters. At the low stakes it's likely plenty soft too.

Mid to higher stakes might have other considerations (playerpool skill for Stars, playerpool availability for Party).
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Old 02-15-2019, 12:57 PM   #6960
evcrusher
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Is there any point in contacting winamax and reporting the obvious expresso bots? I mean they basically MUST be aware.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:42 PM   #6961
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by evcrusher View Post
Is there any point in contacting winamax and reporting the obvious expresso bots? I mean they basically MUST be aware.
Absolutely. Rarely do sites actually like the bots, but most sites underinvest in security, so they will use their resources based on a few factors, one being how many people are complaining about something.
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:52 PM   #6962
GTExploit
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by jinjerjohn View Post
After reading abarone and the posts about smartspin above I started thinking about what could be the answer.

Could a term be added by PokerStars that you have to notify them if you join a cosching/staking site and then they could monitor the tables to see who is avoiding who and impose punishments accordingly?

With the size of some of these stables some player(s) will obviously fall out with the stable and be willing to out players helping to keep players and stables honest.

Maybe PokerStars says stables are allowed but have to email them lists weekly of everyone they stake/coach so they can monitor the spins registration process. Stables found "cheating" risk getting all their players punished.

Harsh times call for harsh solutions.
Agreed that something should be done, but didnt most of these guys in stables join for coaching and financial backing and not because they wanted to cheat? Maybe they only started to cheat because their stablemasters told them to and they had to follow orders. Maybe the stablemasters even told the horse they are allowed to do such cheating as queue system and collusion using excuses that others are also doing it? Many of them are not allowed to leave because of the length of their ridiculous contracts that can easily take over 2 years to complete. Are you sure just banning everyone inside a stable just for being a part of it is a solution? I dont know if ruining many poker players careers because their greedy stablemasters just wanted all the money and are fine with their horse cheating is the solution.
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Old 02-16-2019, 01:06 AM   #6963
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

GTExploit, there is no way you can excuse players for cheating because their backer told them to cheat or others in their group are cheating.

Most non backing situational cheating also takes place in group form, people building illegal software, illegal queing, it all requires more than one person in almost every case to participate.

A backing contract is also no excuse. Even in a regular job with a very clear, standard contract, your boss telling you to do something illegal isn't an excuse and doesn't absolve you from blame.

You're right about people being greedy, but for some reason you're excusing one of the main parties to the cheating.
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Old 02-16-2019, 03:57 AM   #6964
GTExploit
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRy View Post
GTExploit, there is no way you can excuse players for cheating because their backer told them to cheat or others in their group are cheating.

Most non backing situational cheating also takes place in group form, people building illegal software, illegal queing, it all requires more than one person in almost every case to participate.

A backing contract is also no excuse. Even in a regular job with a very clear, standard contract, your boss telling you to do something illegal isn't an excuse and doesn't absolve you from blame.

You're right about people being greedy, but for some reason you're excusing one of the main parties to the cheating.
Agreed. But in some situations there are people in stables who did not do anything wrong but got banned simply for affiliation to the stable or such groups of people. If somebody actually cheats in some way, then they absolutely must be banned because they knew what they were doing and must face the consequences. But if somebody does not cheat but they get banned anyways because someone else or another group of people in the same stable was found cheating, that is not fair to those “innocent” players in my opinion. This is what I meant by saying that banning everybody in a stable for a few people’s actions seems unfair, which some people here have suggested as the solution.
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Old 02-16-2019, 11:08 PM   #6965
youngdaggerdick
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by evcrusher View Post
Is there any point in contacting winamax and reporting the obvious expresso bots? I mean they basically MUST be aware.
who are the obvious expresso bots ?
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:54 PM   #6966
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Fair point GT, thanks for the clarification.
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:39 PM   #6967
vini.barbosa
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

1) Question about the related theme (cheating/bots):
What's the easiest way to identify bots? Playing pattern?
I have some 'regs' that I think could be bots (they NEVER adapt), but not sure.
Should I report and let the site verify for itself?

Thank you.

2) Question about hitting multipliers:
Was talking with some friends about the theme, and they said that the number of players playing some stake don't have any influence on the multipliers that comes.
But if the probabilities of hitting some multi are for the player pool in general (and not individual), like I imagine they are, wouldn't the general number of spins on this stake being played have any influence in more x6, x10 and x25 prizes?
For exemple... If we have 1k players playing on $30 and 500 players on $60, would it be normal to see more x2, x4 spins and less x6, x10 and x25 on $60 stakes?

I can't solve this on my own. Think it have sense, but it would be nice to hear from more experienced Spins players.

Thanks!
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:14 AM   #6968
evcrusher
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Is there a variance simulator for chipev?
I want to know what kind of variance is normal in terms of chipev.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:24 AM   #6969
Max Cut
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by evcrusher View Post
Is there a variance simulator for chipev?
I want to know what kind of variance is normal in terms of chipev.
SwongSim has a chip EV mode, but there is is skew in the distribution of chip EV that it does not simulate, so that is an area of relatively unknown inaccuracy. It also seems to underestimate possible swings in general, based on real world anecdotes. Further, you need to input a standard deviation number which is not well understood. (I think this is typically in the range of about 400 to 500 or so. There are a few examples in the SwongSim thread, if I recall correctly.) So chip EV mode is not trivially easy to use and basically a use at your own risk feature.
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:34 AM   #6970
evcrusher
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Cut View Post
SwongSim has a chip EV mode, but there is is skew in the distribution of chip EV that it does not simulate, so that is an area of relatively unknown inaccuracy. It also seems to underestimate possible swings in general, based on real world anecdotes. Further, you need to input a standard deviation number which is not well understood. (I think this is typically in the range of about 400 to 500 or so. There are a few examples in the SwongSim thread, if I recall correctly.) So chip EV mode is not trivially easy to use and basically a use at your own risk feature.
Doesnt sound too good. I have big trouble dealing with my run over the last ~500 games. I just cant belive what is possible in terms of coolers/setups/card dist. Even tho the games are super soft..
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:52 AM   #6971
Max Cut
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Everybody will eventually run worse than they thought was possible. The difference between a winner and a loser is that the latter thinks they do not deserve it.
archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=&Number=1822484



Quote:
This statement is truer than anyone can know(even though I think most of you do know, it just seems impossible for me to believe that someone else can understand). What he says about winners and losers though, will keep you from attaining a more complete game. There are no winners or losers, to think that, is to let yourself be affected by negative variance.
forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36/stt-strategy/almost-there-success-failure-long-17/
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:27 PM   #6972
Sp1nOne
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Hello everyone,

I would like to receive your opinion of a topic that I am trying to report about several players which i have a lot of suspicion that they are bots.

I've been playing Spin & Go professionally for more than 3 years at the stake of 100s, and i have never seen such a peculiar game.

They are approximately a group of 7 players of average stake of 50$ with practically identical game.

Peculiarities that they perform in their game all on a regular basis:

- No OS in BTN, just with less of 12bb maybe they have near 6-8% OS.
- Large Donk Range. 4/8 srp/lp frecuency on hu game.
- Hu OS Hands out of nash.
- Large range of limp in hu with short stack.
- Sick Rol frecuency in hu with 8-12bb.

If anyone can really give me some input I would appreciate it, I could also show their hud and give more information privately.

thank you all.

Last edited by _dave_; 02-20-2019 at 09:37 PM. Reason: unbolded
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:15 PM   #6973
acbarone
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp1nOne View Post
Hello everyone,

I would like to receive your opinion of a topic that I am trying to report about several players which i have a lot of suspicion that they are bots.

I've been playing Spin & Go professionally for more than 3 years at the stake of 100s, and i have never seen such a peculiar game.

They are approximately a group of 7 players of average stake of 50$ with practically identical game.

Peculiarities that they perform in their game all on a regular basis:

- No OS in BTN, just with less of 12bb maybe they have near 6-8% OS.
- Large Donk Range. 4/8 srp/lp frecuency on hu game.
- Hu OS Hands out of nash.
- Large range of limp in hu with short stack.
- Sick Rol frecuency in hu with 8-12bb.

If anyone can really give me some input I would appreciate it, I could also show their hud and give more information privately.

thank you all.
Before I start, I find the fact that it's all bolded to be mildly annoying, but perhaps that's just me.

I'm all for bot hunting, but similar game could mean several things, i.e. in a study group together, at one time/or currently coached by the same player, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp1nOne View Post
- No OS in BTN, just with less of 12bb maybe they have near 6-8% OS.
- Large Donk Range. 4/8 srp/lp frecuency on hu game.
- Hu OS Hands out of nash.
- Large range of limp in hu with short stack.
- Sick Rol frecuency in hu with 8-12bb.
A bit confused by some of your acronyms, I assume OS = Open Shove, SRP is uhhh, I dunno, same for ROL. Again, maybe I'm just behind the times.
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:26 PM   #6974
d0zer
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

single raised pot / limped pot and raise over limp

times are changing : p

none of the characteristics listed above seem strange : s
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Old 02-20-2019, 08:37 PM   #6975
Sp1nOne
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer View Post
single raised pot / limped pot and raise over limp

times are changing : p

none of the characteristics listed above seem strange : s
You don´t see strange 7 regular players Open shoving out of nash, them large range of limp with 4-6bb?
They make also Rol to call Ev- and never adapted.
And BTN game they just Os few hand with less of 12-10bb

Maybe is a group of players that they just study together and they are making sick desviation but it dont look like, I have never seen 7 hud that similar.
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