that's not how they believe it works and i believe that it is an oversimplification, too. the money comes from deposits, net-withdrawers are only necessary to facilitate games. you can read endless discussions about that in the nvg thread about rake increase, if you have too much time on your hand

Yeah...this isn't how it works...

As ohly posted, all the money pokersites make comes from net depositors. If you put in $1000 and take out $1500, the site doesn't make money from you. The site makes money from the rake paid by net depositors between reloads. More or less.

In reality, the site makes the most money if everyone is ~0ev vs each other and money gets passed around a ton between players (because money is raked every time it's transferred).

Ive never quite understood this.

I look at a poker room and assume their income is the rake deducted each hand.

I look at it as some kind of cash account you would use in accountancy.

Opening cash in hand ( Stars cash balance ) - debit
Income ( rake ) - debit
Cash introduced ( deposits ) - debit
Cash withdrawal ( withdrawals ) - credit
Closing cash in hand ( Stars closing cash balance ) - credit

You could add maybe the RB given out to players as a further credit to lower the closing cash in hand for more accuracy.

The only two items that would affect the profit and loss here are the income and RB deductions.

If you deposit $1k and withdrew $1.5k then surely Stars is still making money off you because of the rake you paid in winning that $500 and that $500 has just lowered the cash in hand figure, it has no bearing on the profit and loss account.

Im sure someone will correct me and im fine with that , just never quite understood this net deposit thinking.

Stars in their heyday made a load of money by encouraging / rewarding volume because it brought in so much rake income .. it baffles me why this would not still work today.

The value of a player is how much less rake there would be generated if that player didn't exist.

If you remove a reg from the ecosystem, then there will be fewer games running, but recs' deposits will last longer on average, which will make them more likely to redeposit, and also, less marketing money will be required for the poker site to spend to ensure that the games be soft enough to run at all (games hardly run if there are no recs, of course).

If you remove a rec, the games will become tougher, some regs will have to move down as a result, fewer games will be running at high stakes, less rake will be generated, and actually, the difference will be bigger than the rake that the rec themself used to pay.

A players' value is something intermediate between their net deposit amount and their volume (and withdrawing regs differ in value too, e.g. after the reduction of VIP rewards, FREEQ7Z, who's motivated to grind and pay a lot of rake nevertheless, may be more valuable to Stars than a low-volume crusher because the former helps the games start a lot faster but takes fewer chips per game off a rec than a crusher does); as of late, though, the consensus has been that the net deposit is a bigger factor than the volume.

I didn't pay anything. Recs paid the rake. Let's say I win $500 and play games that rake $50. Recs lost $550 in their games vs me. $50 went to PS, $500 went to me. I don't contribute monetarily to PS through playing the games. $0 came from me here, it all comes from the net depositors.

Of course, arguably I produce liquidity and some number of games wouldn't run without me, which is some amount of rake PS wouldn't have (at least, immediately) if I didn't exist. But likely that's offset by recs winning more and depositing more/sticking around longer. And either way, the liquidity in hu hypers is near infinite anyway so the value provided by me as a reg is likely small in that regard.

So it's much simpler to just stop at the fact that the money that PS takes comes from losing recs, and not from winning regs.

All the posts below starting in the above are

Overcomplicating ,

Stars makes 0 from deposits - Thats oversimplification , only when rake is produced they make money .
I am not discussing , reg-rec ratio and other things mentioned.

Imagine 100 recreational players at nl2

They play 10k hands year (avg pot sizes etcetc)

Do u know how much value they produce to stars ? (i dont)

Lets assume....500€ per year ?

U get the point ?

Pokerstars has a site where they teach players how to play , they contribute
actively for the first step to transform recs in regs

Nanonoko , a well known cash reg who made tons of money in profit and was SNE for several years if my memory is right , and milked all the fish , appears in those Pokerstars videos.

There are much more examples.

So basically all that was wrote above does not apply for the reasons i mentioned

A player reg or rec is a customer who produces profit and its just naive to think a company of the size of Pokerstars would pick individual players and do this , it would be a complete comercial suicide for them , they may create harder games to beat not persecute individual players.

This situation is very simple indeed , most likely this guy was a scammer
and you can have a different opinion and read a post about a guy who was accused not even know Pokerstars reponse (true they dont comment but u still dont know ) and say
oh poor dear , evil pokerstars

That is your right and your opinion

IMO , hes a scammer , was fully investigated and they ban him.

looking at the grids of the latest awards
I do not see any number greater than five-digit premium ...

Does anyone have numbers on this? in the beginning had good turns,
I do not know now

To be clear, do I take it right that, while Stars' ToS expressly prohibit using 3rd party software or services to manipulate the seating in spins, primitive 'manual' techniques of registration timing that don't involve 3rd party software nor services, like the common sense technique in acbarone's Feb 2017 PGC post quoted below, are allowed? It would make no sense to prohibit them because 1) recs are smart enough to use them too, and 2) their use is difficult to investigate.

Just in case someone missed it, about the spinlegends head coach fraud talking: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1.../#post53888695

Thanks, I didn't miss that thread, but I didn't want to derail it because I have nothing to contribute about the spin4play case.

Also, many thanks for your eye-opening post in that thread

hello,

in PS lobby shows promotions with 5s spins, i would like to ask about structure of this tourn. what is b/e point? Is it better to play 3s/7s or 5s during this promotion? Can someone describe me how it is looks like?

Which game to play depends on whether BetStars is available in your country.

If it is, then 8% of the prize pool goes towards free bet prizes, and there's no nominal rake at all. Of course, the value of the bets is much less than their nominal value because when you use them, the value of the bet isn't returned to you - you only get the net winnings - but even if a $2 free bet is about as valuable as $1 in cash, then the effective rake in 5s is about 4% for countries where BetStars operates, which is lower than in all other Spin & Gos.

For those countries where BetStars is unavailable, 5s have 8% rake because there's no way of using the free bets.

I haven't examined the fish-to-reg ratio in those, but I'm afraid that regs from the countries served by BetStars (incl. Canada, the UK, most EU countries) will be playing a lot of tables due to the low rake, making 5s less profitable than 3s/7s for countries not served by BetStars.

Here are the probability tables copied from the webpage of the promo - https://www.pokerstars.eu/poker/prom...n-and-goal-1m/:

That's actually a first.

As for whether to play $5s or $7s, I've done a small research of the reg ratio in $3-15 spins as of this hour using the observation tab.

I've counted 'obvious recreationals' only, i.e. those who were unhidden from search and who weren't playing more than 1 table of the same limit (but some were playing MTTs on the side). The ratios of the count of seats taken by 'obv recs' to the total number of observed seats were as follows (the number of observed players isn't divisible by 3 because sometimes I was only shown the HU phase).

$3s: 64% (18/28)
$5s: 34% (18/53)
$7s: 58% (15/26)
$15s: 36% (14/39)

Though of course there was variance in the observation, the research has confirmed my conjecture that regs are flocking to $5s en masse due to the low rake (I've seen some 4-tablers there), and that the market has balanced itself so the ROIs (with free bet equity included) of regs from the countries served by BetStars at $5s and $7s are about the same, while regs from the other countries are better off playing $3s or $7s.

I did hit 100k games and looked up some numbers. I've hit 200x once, 100x 4 times and I'm making between 70-74% of $EV each stake.

I would like your opinions please

How do the spin n gos on stars compare to the sit n go hero on party (Im referring to both 3max ones)

Is one site softer than the other? does one site have more bots than the other?

for a medium to high volume player (lets say barely making supernova) how does the rakeback compare?

any other reasons you prefer one site to the other?

thanks

Hello guise, do any of you guys know where I can find this software?

Apparently there is some stables using this to see how many fish/regs that is playing the stakes in real time by just clicking update.

Google translate says it´s hungarian, although I am not a translate expert.

It would be a really nice software to have... Imagine the edge guys








Btw, is it legal? If it is do you know where I can find it?

Jeez, the hits keep coming That is surely not legal. Possibly SonOfSpinlyzer of some sort.

Fix your leaky ship please PokerStars!

Also earlier today I heard about a botting scandal on Winamax

https://www.clubpoker.net/forum-poke...t-sur-winamax/

I thought we have news when someone is not using anything on Winamax?

Hey. So my account was ''randomly'' selected to do a security check witch ended with a full on ban. They didnt really ask for any explenation or anything like that just pure ban and then told that i was using banned 3d party software. Well thats not the case and i tried to ask them to tell me what software exactly they are acusing me of using but they didnt want to tell me what it was, i think thats super odd. I know of at least two other regulars from diffrent stables that got banned randomly yesterday and got same mails as me. We are in no way linked btw. Seems like they are just randomly targeting regs to get ride of us.

Fortunitly they let me withdrawl all my bankrolls without a problem but still, its super ****ty move by them. Basicly just ban because they can.

Do you guys know of more regs that was randomly banned for good in the last 48hours?

oh yeah, maybe i should share graph lol. I suspected that they feel that i´m taking to much from the games. Also i like to add. Both times when i hit JP and win they closed down my account and made ridiculus acusasions to delay my cashouts for as long as possible. during that time ofc i was able to play/gamble if i wanted but no cashouts, another dirty move

i know of another reg who is 10000000% innocent, i would put my life on him being innocent, hes also still frozen right now....

whats your username?

Yeah i´m not frozen, i just got perma ban on all pokerstars rooms and nothing i can do really.

Started playing on .es as EasyWinL0L after long break.


this is the last response i got.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
''Hello ********,

Thank you for contacting us. Your email was escalated to me as a member of the Game Integrity Team.

Your case was carefully reviewed by multiple members of our Game Integrity Team, and every one of us reached the same conclusion; you are no longer entitled to our services.

I regret that we are unable to provide specific details regarding our conclusion. We do not detail exactly what evidence was found, as that would serve only to educate third party tool developers on how to avoid detection in the future.

Do not attempt to play on any of these platforms. Any account we find you to be using, whether it belongs to yourself or a friend, will be closed and all funds within will be confiscated. Should you circumvent our controls by opening or accessing another account with any of our brands and/or group companies, we reserve the right to confiscate any and all assets contained in the account(s) irrespective of the amount of time it has taken us to identify and confirm the links between the account(s) and/or the account holder(s).

Your cooperation is greatly appreciated.''
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So they dont want to tell me what illegal tool i was using bc then i could educate devolepers?? Its not like im asking how theyre detections work, just asking what program exactly they are acusing me of using. But ofioucly its BS since i was not using anything banned.
And if i where using something illegal how would it hurt them to tell me what i was using? i would already know what the program is and what it does...

Looks like heads a starting too fall just like after akis was selling his software publicly.

Not disclosing specifics about bans is ldo obvious and has been industry standard for years. Unfortunate situation if you're really innocent, though I think recently PS has had a pretty alright track record overall. It also could be the case that you're banned for being a high-risk account (with some financial connections to other sketchy accounts), though the emails do suggest (but not explicitly confirm) it's something about your play.