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Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos Discussion of heads up Sit & Go and Spin and Go poker games. Sponsored by HUSNG.com, the leading heads up poker video site.

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Old 09-18-2017, 07:56 PM   #6276
acbarone
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by valuecutting View Post
supervised bots = real players with realtime advice software
That already exists (and PS banned a large # of them)
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:14 AM   #6277
the4bettingmonk
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by valuecutting View Post
supervised bots = real players with realtime advice software
I meant the other type - has same name tho? - a bot supervised by a player who is simply there to bypass various security protocols. These are the types being caught more often by sites. A player using live simulators will deviate in strategy a little bit more from others so is less likely to be caught.

If you ask Jungleman stars aren't catching these particular guys. He's said for a long time (maybe in jest) that Oborra was using a bot and so were guys at the 5k sngs.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:17 AM   #6278
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

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Originally Posted by LeaksSuck View Post
That's a really huge underestimation.

Do you mean "supervised bots" = bots ran by amaya btw? I think this scenarioe isn't that unrealistic.
It isn't if they play to near libratus levels. Said really good reg because their ROI would be nothing insane, but it would kill your winrate.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:57 AM   #6279
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

(As everyone?) I'm lacking sufficient market data, but if it is anywhere close to data pre summer 2016, then two things hold:

- The rec/reg ratio (at least speaking for 15s/30s) is incredibly much higher than at any other gametype
- The player pool is giant, thus a handful of more or less regs won't have a huge influence on overall profitability, let alone make the current games "unprofitable". Imo the only one that can make them unprofitable is Amaya by either raising rake further or not putting enough effort in anti-cheat/bot
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:01 PM   #6280
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Nice post Leaks.
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Old 09-19-2017, 05:04 PM   #6281
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

On the subject, I'm 99% I was playing a bot at the 30s @stars a couple of days ago.
The decision timeings was the most constant I've ever seen, did not respond chat and played extremely roboty with the lines. Still found it very leaky though.. + Quite sure it was just a prototype and not running (yet).
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:20 AM   #6282
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawboyy View Post
On the subject, I'm 99% I was playing a bot at the 30s @stars a couple of days ago.
The decision timeings was the most constant I've ever seen, did not respond chat and played extremely roboty with the lines. Still found it very leaky though.. + Quite sure it was just a prototype and not running (yet).
Im just wondering how many games you played with him, or you have skills to see that player is boting in couple of hands I'm not answering the chat also and doesnt matter what other players says, because when you are playing 4+ tables it is not possible physically for me to chat with people , because I start losing table's tempo.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:05 PM   #6283
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

I'm sure bots exists at 30s or lower, but I also don't think anyone can easily recognise them (especially if you think this bot is bad). It's better not to fear monger. And as mentioned at those stakes a few bots is not going to affect the profitability of the games.

Also consistent timings is the easiest thing to fix for a botter, and some regs use a program like timemojo to get rid of timing tells.
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Old 09-20-2017, 07:22 PM   #6284
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

at what cEV on 30s would you guys consider and start playing 60s. Also would u try and take shots at 100s with 45cev at 60s?
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Old Yesterday, 05:18 AM   #6285
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
I'm sure bots exists at 30s or lower, but I also don't think anyone can easily recognise them (especially if you think this bot is bad). It's better not to fear monger. And as mentioned at those stakes a few bots is not going to affect the profitability of the games.

Also consistent timings is the easiest thing to fix for a botter, and some regs use a program like timemojo to get rid of timing tells.
Why at 30s or lower? Why not maximize hourly of your standalone program by playing at the highest stakes? Is it because the bots are breakeven at 30s or lower and the income comes from RB and they are losing too much at higher stakes because of better competition?
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Old Yesterday, 09:12 AM   #6286
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

A bot can maximally be as "good" at poker as his coder and not everyone beats 60+ games
Yeah ok, technically they can be better cause they can calc stuff that their creator was capable of but is lacking the time to, but I think u get what I mean.

Not leaning too far out of the window when saying: Yes there are supposedly bots at all levels, this def is a huge problem and every measure taken against it is helpful for the market as a whole, but the problem isn't that big that it currently threatens to kill spins.

So:
Quote:
Originally Posted by watergun7 View Post
It's better not to fear monger.

Last edited by LeaksSuck; Yesterday at 09:18 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 09:35 AM   #6287
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Yeah most likely bots exists at all stakes. There might be more at lower stakes, but the effect to the player pool is much smaller. Also a bot at 100s is far more likely to be caught than a bot at 30s. It's not the end of spins yet.
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Old Today, 07:20 AM   #6288
the4bettingmonk
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Just saw a thing on reddit - apparently one of libratus's creators said a GTO bot could beat it at 30bb/100 hands. Libratus beat the pros at 11.55bb/100 so if development continues a lot more people would be tempted to utilise supervised bots. Very long ways away from a true GTO bot ofc - would need quantum supercomputers to deal optimally with the trillions of variable outcomes :P

Also RE the russian players on bwin/party a few are gone as quickly as they arrived. Can't deduce much from it but DON players said there were some new russian accounts that played suspiciously.
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Old Today, 08:08 AM   #6289
LeaksSuck
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by the4bettingmonk View Post
Just saw a thing on reddit - apparently one of libratus's creators said a GTO bot could beat it at 30bb/100 hands.
it = spins? level? how does the creator know that without illegaly trying? source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the4bettingmonk View Post
Libratus beat the pros at 11.55bb/100
Was actually even a bit higher, 14.7 bb/100 according to that source (german): https://www.pokerolymp.com/liberatus...nfang-vom-ende
But imo that's good news: Poker is still very beatable and even vs good regs high winrates are possible.
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Old Today, 10:37 AM   #6290
the4bettingmonk
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaksSuck View Post
it = spins? level? how does the creator know that without illegaly trying? source?



Was actually even a bit higher, 14.7 bb/100 according to that source (german): https://www.pokerolymp.com/liberatus...nfang-vom-ende
But imo that's good news: Poker is still very beatable and even vs good regs high winrates are possible.
Creator was purely speculating, pretty humble sentiment though considering it was the best bot software for HU NL.

It's... not good news imo. Libratus didn't win just from superior play - it quite simply overwhelms the human player in terms of betsizing. It was selecting hundreds of different betsizes, making range construction for the human player extremely difficult. Will be less of a factor at 25bbs etc. If you look at its plays in isolation they look really weird. Libratus hu games were at 100b starting.

Not sure what percentage of the winrate was due to the unique overbetting/bet sizing strat and how much was due to better general play - not all the pots were unconventional ofc.
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Old Today, 10:42 AM   #6291
LeaksSuck
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Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

Quote:
Originally Posted by the4bettingmonk View Post
Libratus didn't win just from superior play - it quite simply overwhelms the human player in terms of betsizing. It was selecting hundreds of different betsizes, making range construction for the human player extremely difficult.
Isn't that exactly superior play?
I don't see a problem with it unless sites lose the technology battle vs botters.
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