a good algorithmus could do the work. it could compare all players vs all players with playtime and i think even after couple hundreds of games, it should be obv when players never play against each other in the same grindtime. i hope stars has something like this already set up.

i think its not so much that its obvious they are doing it, or you could create something that would reveal it, but that stars just doesnt care. its not technically illegal like they said. thats the sad part.

You wouldn't even necessarily need people to disclose their relationship to backers if they are sending transfers on stars.

2 players playing the same games at the same time, who are never seated together while both receiving transfers from the same backers would be enough to connect them and see there is something happening off the tables.

No. Who are "they"?

From https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/ under "In general, what kinds of tools and services are prohibited?"

In the short term, yes. In the long term, many will just do transfers off site, and just use deposit/cashout options, so Stars would only see people depositing and cashing out as normal.

There are probably other solutions worth considering, but p2p patterns (which are obviously used now by security at times to help investigations) are not a long term reliable way to fully identify relationships.

A lot has been mentioned about cev here. So that term and thus the number would tell if you are a winning player or losing player correct? If so, how do i find out what my number is? I use Holdem manager 2.


Someone also mention it should be so and so for a particular stake such as this number is good for 7s but now 30s?


So does this mean in holdem manager 2, looking at your bb/100 in stack size is completely useless for spin and go?

On a related topic. Is there any pro/con on playing spin and goes on stars vs party since they have pretty much the same stakes?

What level? Stars is widely accepted as being better at catching cheaters. At the low stakes it's likely plenty soft too.

Mid to higher stakes might have other considerations (playerpool skill for Stars, playerpool availability for Party).

Is there any point in contacting winamax and reporting the obvious expresso bots? I mean they basically MUST be aware.

Absolutely. Rarely do sites actually like the bots, but most sites underinvest in security, so they will use their resources based on a few factors, one being how many people are complaining about something.

Agreed that something should be done, but didnt most of these guys in stables join for coaching and financial backing and not because they wanted to cheat? Maybe they only started to cheat because their stablemasters told them to and they had to follow orders. Maybe the stablemasters even told the horse they are allowed to do such cheating as queue system and collusion using excuses that others are also doing it? Many of them are not allowed to leave because of the length of their ridiculous contracts that can easily take over 2 years to complete. Are you sure just banning everyone inside a stable just for being a part of it is a solution? I dont know if ruining many poker players careers because their greedy stablemasters just wanted all the money and are fine with their horse cheating is the solution.

GTExploit, there is no way you can excuse players for cheating because their backer told them to cheat or others in their group are cheating.

Most non backing situational cheating also takes place in group form, people building illegal software, illegal queing, it all requires more than one person in almost every case to participate.

A backing contract is also no excuse. Even in a regular job with a very clear, standard contract, your boss telling you to do something illegal isn't an excuse and doesn't absolve you from blame.

You're right about people being greedy, but for some reason you're excusing one of the main parties to the cheating.

Agreed. But in some situations there are people in stables who did not do anything wrong but got banned simply for affiliation to the stable or such groups of people. If somebody actually cheats in some way, then they absolutely must be banned because they knew what they were doing and must face the consequences. But if somebody does not cheat but they get banned anyways because someone else or another group of people in the same stable was found cheating, that is not fair to those “innocent” players in my opinion. This is what I meant by saying that banning everybody in a stable for a few people’s actions seems unfair, which some people here have suggested as the solution.

who are the obvious expresso bots ?

Fair point GT, thanks for the clarification.

1) Question about the related theme (cheating/bots):
What's the easiest way to identify bots? Playing pattern?
I have some 'regs' that I think could be bots (they NEVER adapt), but not sure.
Should I report and let the site verify for itself?

Thank you.

2) Question about hitting multipliers:
Was talking with some friends about the theme, and they said that the number of players playing some stake don't have any influence on the multipliers that comes.
But if the probabilities of hitting some multi are for the player pool in general (and not individual), like I imagine they are, wouldn't the general number of spins on this stake being played have any influence in more x6, x10 and x25 prizes?
For exemple... If we have 1k players playing on $30 and 500 players on $60, would it be normal to see more x2, x4 spins and less x6, x10 and x25 on $60 stakes?

I can't solve this on my own. Think it have sense, but it would be nice to hear from more experienced Spins players.

Thanks!

Is there a variance simulator for chipev?
I want to know what kind of variance is normal in terms of chipev.

SwongSim has a chip EV mode, but there is is skew in the distribution of chip EV that it does not simulate, so that is an area of relatively unknown inaccuracy. It also seems to underestimate possible swings in general, based on real world anecdotes. Further, you need to input a standard deviation number which is not well understood. (I think this is typically in the range of about 400 to 500 or so. There are a few examples in the SwongSim thread, if I recall correctly.) So chip EV mode is not trivially easy to use and basically a use at your own risk feature.

Doesnt sound too good. I have big trouble dealing with my run over the last ~500 games. I just cant belive what is possible in terms of coolers/setups/card dist. Even tho the games are super soft..

archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=&Number=1822484



forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36/stt-strategy/almost-there-success-failure-long-17/

Hello everyone,

I would like to receive your opinion of a topic that I am trying to report about several players which i have a lot of suspicion that they are bots.

I've been playing Spin & Go professionally for more than 3 years at the stake of 100s, and i have never seen such a peculiar game.

They are approximately a group of 7 players of average stake of 50$ with practically identical game.

Peculiarities that they perform in their game all on a regular basis:

- No OS in BTN, just with less of 12bb maybe they have near 6-8% OS.
- Large Donk Range. 4/8 srp/lp frecuency on hu game.
- Hu OS Hands out of nash.
- Large range of limp in hu with short stack.
- Sick Rol frecuency in hu with 8-12bb.

If anyone can really give me some input I would appreciate it, I could also show their hud and give more information privately.

thank you all.

Before I start, I find the fact that it's all bolded to be mildly annoying, but perhaps that's just me.

I'm all for bot hunting, but similar game could mean several things, i.e. in a study group together, at one time/or currently coached by the same player, etc.

A bit confused by some of your acronyms, I assume OS = Open Shove, SRP is uhhh, I dunno, same for ROL. Again, maybe I'm just behind the times.

single raised pot / limped pot and raise over limp

times are changing : p

none of the characteristics listed above seem strange : s

You don´t see strange 7 regular players Open shoving out of nash, them large range of limp with 4-6bb?
They make also Rol to call Ev- and never adapted.
And BTN game they just Os few hand with less of 12-10bb

Maybe is a group of players that they just study together and they are making sick desviation but it dont look like, I have never seen 7 hud that similar.

All you kids and your stats, get off my lawn!

It def looks weird, but I think that makes it less likely to be a bot and more likely to be a study group. But if it is a bot, cool, exploit those things and print.