^ this for sure. Forgot to mention it. Great idea, emotionx

So it seems the above option is supported by everyone? I mean- it basically means that sitting mediocre regs is +EV, and naturally (but harshly) polices the lobbies.

I can see there is probably going to be more regwars as a result, and in no way can bumhunters carry on what they are doing at the moment..

Chop with no vpps is a crappy solution. Both players lose 1% or whatever, so may as well play it out. I don't see this being used at all. No matter how much better other guy is, a lose 1% roi button sounds really crappy to me. Other players will do the math and figure this out too.

Maybe these vpp can't be used to put you in the next VIP bracket or something instead.

meh i'm not massively in favour of it and seems like it could be a little harsh for people who prefer to one table. plus it sounds sort of hard to organise logistically as well. fish prob wouldn't understand it and it'd just be another annoying option/check-box to click before every game starts.

if you play 1000 games vs regs and you win 500 and lose 500, youve lost 1 roi any way you slice it, but honestly flipping with your friends and playing with regs you dont know works fine imo. people act like nobody is making any money cause of simulsits

Need more HU mtt's at a variety of buy in levels. Also more HU Hyper mtt's would be good.

Ugh, This Thread Began Promising...

When PokerStars requested a new thread to be made, where we the Heads Up SNG community could voice our opinions and propose changes that would be not only beneficial to all players in the community but to PokerStars as well it was great news and I was very excited!

Instead this thread has been filled with endless clutter with people arguing about things that not everyone wants nor benefits Pokerstars in any way and I am afraid that we are in danger of losing the attention of the PokerStars staff if this thread continues in this direction. I doubt that the PokerStars staff wants to sit there and read through a painfully disorganized thread where people are just arguing back and fourth about non sense.

What Needs To Be Done

Can the mods please delete all of the posts in which people argue their side repetitively, if there is an improvement in which you want to have implemented their is no need to spam the Pokerstars Improvement Thread with your argument rephrased into 10 different ways or put others down who don't agree with you. Just post your opinion one time and trust in the community and PokerStars to decide as a whole whether they agree with your suggestion or not.

Also Please remember that although PokerStars is nice enough to listen to their loyal clients and consider changes to the site we must remember that PokerStars a BUSINESS and must do what is best for their bottom line, so please before you make a suggestion please consider if whether or not your suggestion will beneficial to PokerStars business model.

Changes In Which I propose

The changes in which I propose are all changes in which I believe everyone in the community can unanimously agree upon. The changes in which I propose will also help PokerStars as a business rake more money from HUSNGs:

1-HUSNG Leaderboard and other volume based promotions:

I am yet to hear anyone say anything negative regarding the application of a HUSNG LeaderBoard, Leaderboards are both very fair and reward the most hardworking individuals in the community. The leaderboard will help PokerStars rake more because players will begin to put in much more volume in or to compete for a spot on the LeaderBoard. Some players are already grinding out +8000 hypers a month chasing Supernova Elite could u imagine what volume would look like if they were actually competing against one another for a top spot on a LB as well. The LB would most certainly pay for itself and PokerStars would end up making ton off of the dramatically increased volume.


2-Use advertisements and HUSNG MTTS as a way to build the recreational player base:

Although I am obviously biased but I believe that HUSNGs are the absolute most fun game on the site. I love the competitive nature and instant gratification HUSNGs provide, there is really no other game on the site like it. I love that sometimes after the game is over you can look back and be like "wow I owned that guy" and feel better about yourself its a great feeling of euphoria that everyone who has ever played the game can relate to even recreational players. The main problem with the current HUSNG player pool at the mid-high stakes is that a lot of players on the site have yet to try HUSNGs but the ones who do try it fall in love with the game and this is why there are sooo many regs and we also play the same few recreational players all day.

We need to push for ways in which will allow more recreational players to give HUSNGs a try and allow more players fall in love with this wonderful game. I propose that more HUSNG MTTS be added for the Mid-High stakes and that these MTTS be promoted well.

3-Longterm Sustainability:

Longterm sustainability and the ability for players to have an edge is very important especially in HUSNGs. The edges in HU Hypers are razor thin and eventually as the average player becomes more and more competent most players will not be able to maintain an edge and beat the rake. Thus more and more players will be forced to move down or completely quit the game and games will begin to dry up at the Mid-High stakes. I do not feel like I need to explain why this will be neither good for the HUSNG community or PokerStars so what I propose is that since most edge in Hu Hypers is gained at the earlier levels, Pokerstars simply increase the time in which it takes for blinds to go up by 1-2 minutes this very small change will allow for more play and make sure that the game remains beatable for years to come.

-As far as the Stars/FTP comparisons: What I meant was that Stars basically offers the same setup for HU stngos as FTP did (stake levels, turbos, hypers, reg speeds ect) with the only big difference I know of being the lobby system. You would think that since Stars has more players and presumably more money on the site then FTP ever did that it would translate to more total HU stngos running regardless of any points you made. They ratio of total site players and HU sitngos running has always leaned heavily towards FTP even before Black Friday. More regs migrating over shouldn't have a negative impact on the actual games that run on Stars currently.

-Grinding lobbies absolutely has become more important then playing poker (at least at the $100-$300 stakes). If someone is able to put in significantly more volume then someone else who is of equal or better ability because they are faster to register or have a program how can you possibly argue that isnt true? No offense but for someone who isnt even playing in these games to state we are saying things that are "completely untrue" is ridiculous.

-As far as Stars bottom line goes, I didn't know the point of this thread was to make sure Stars is able to continue to take advantage of some of their most important customers like they currently are with this simultaneous sitting scenario. I understand they are in it to make money but I think many here are just hopeful they will do the right thing and address that.

-Yes you very well may find a few posts from people complaining about FTPs system as well. I may have overstated that a bit but the point is the same because it is only a small fraction compared to those who disagree with Stars current lobby system.

I also want to make clear that I am as outraged as anyone with FTP and don't want to make it seem I like am in love with them or something. My positive opinions only relate to their software and innovations which Stars is/has tried to copy in many ways.

Another thing I would like to say is that I usually only 1 table so the current Stars system is not a big detriment to me personally and I am not in anyway biased.

I would be in favor of this. Very logical solution to most of the problems atm.

Lowering rake to a proportional ammount of that deeper structure edge is the same effect in terms of rake/hour (both parties: stars/clients) than the longer structure fix. And keeps format the same way.
We all know since ages ago what is the real solution for a long-term bussiness in husngs, lets be honest : )

Problem is we are fairly aware stars wont ever lower the rake at all so we try to find secondary ways to save our world... If rake was lowered absolutely everything discussed here as 'improvement' wouldnt even be discussed at all.

lame but true

hmmmm Im not really pushing for stars to lower the rake just increase the amount of time in which it takes for blinds to go up at the Hu hypers by 1-2 mins

just saying all u achieve with that is deeper edge vs other players and lower rake/hour, by modifying the structure. If you decrease rake, you achieve the same rake/hour in proportion, you still get deeper edge vs other players, and structure remains the same. Thats what i meant

aka i see increasing time between blinds almost the same as lowering rake in terms of results aka it might not happen !

for example. Hypers go from 2.5 avg to 5min avg. Result = half rake for stars. So it would be just easier to decrease rake pretty much

also people dont be so humble really, yeah some ideas would be pretty amazing but stars developers wont start doing ****load of new features/scripts just because we husngers need those specific ones. Id be honest and try to push for the delay thing fix or lower rake, structure changes etc. Things that can ACTUALLY be done with a high % chance. Just need to push it

not that I expect an instant rake reduction, but to say "stars wont ever lower the rake at all" is imo quite unfair. rake was considerably lowered in husng, along with introductionof hypers and improvements in turbo/reg structure only last May.

wtr to the mechanics of "delay", I think it's be good if it was kinda merged with "multiple lobbies". i.e client sends it's lobby state to the servers when it sends the register request, i.e lobby was empty. in such circumstance the server receives two "empty lobby" sits, it spawns both as 1-player waiting. in this case of extra lobbies, It won't spawn a new empty one until all are taken.

I do not believe that the solutions are the same for several reasons. If PokerStars simply lowers the rake this only benefits the players and in no way benefits Pokerstars at all and lowering the also hurts their bottom line. I feel like my solution is both beneficial and fair to both parties because by slightly altering the amount of time in which it takes for blinds to increase total gametime won't be dramatically altered and it will increase sustainability for HU Hypers for years to come.

I do not believe that with the new structure rake should not be increased at all because total game time wont be dramatically increased and players who play 1hr worth of hypers will still pay much more money in rake then players who play 1 hr of HU Turbos and many other games offered at the site.

Shane, I made the point privately to JTS about his comment and how it was absurd and he agreed that the comment was incorrect. There's no need to insult me over it, but clearly being a good player is much more important than being good in the lobby. If you're not good you can't even think about sitting at the levels that you're talking about. If you don't know anything about the lobby but you are good, you will still profit fairly well. If you mean lobby registering is a skill that has increased in value in the last 6 months, I doubt you would find anybody disagreeing with you.

Also, ucnat, points about hypers and regs are good, but I don't believe you included the 40%+ VIP many players at those levels are receiving as well. So the line is probably a bit lower than that (unless you included it and I missed it, if so sorry about that).

I don't think you understand. Full Tilt was operating a company 100s millions of dollars in the red. It's pretty easy to give many, many more people the opportunity to gamble it up in heads up sngs (or any game) when they literally deposit, get funds on FTP, but don't get charged, lose, then repeat the process for months. This is money that should have NEVER entered into the player pool. If Stars decided to float players hundreds of millions of dollars and decided not to cover their responsibility to player funds after 100s of millions government seizures as well... well I can envision a much fishier poker room for awhile (until it imploded and everybody with funds on the site basically gets nothing). Full Tilt basically wasn't real. If the ownership had to keep funds segregated and cover all deposits that went into the site, promos would've been cut back, rake would've increased to cover margins and seizures and many new depositors in 2010 would have never deposited funds they didn't have (or didn't intend to lose) onto the site.

(Edit: Also, FTP had super turbos, Stars did not. When you add a very fast game to the site, a game that takes 2-3 min per, versus one that takes 10 minutes per, when you compare the overall HUSNGs running to the overall amount of players on the site, the site with the 2-3 minute avg time games will have an advantage in that metric).

I'm done talking about the unlimited vs increased lobbies. I'm not against more lobbies, I'm against unlimited lobbies. Stars is happy to see the lively debate I'm sure, it gives them more information to make decisions. We're not wasting anybody's time here, we're all here for a purpose, as players that want the games improved, as a poker room that wants to increase the distance between them and the next best place for heads up sngs, and to us USA players (or in my case, somebody whose livelihood depends on heads up sngs being around and profitable), who have a direct interest in PokerStars improving heads up sngs over time (it sets the worldwide bar higher, which does impact what will eventually be regulated US online poker rooms). When a US facing poker site says "what should we do about HUSNGs?" one of the first things they will look at is how PokerStars does things.

Two other thoughts:

- Really love the bighusla idea of adding a minute or two to blind levels. Even extending that point, are people interested in trialing new structures/hybrid structures? I think it would be really cool to at least have a test game or two running for Stars to gather feedback on. We did a 40bb structure pre black friday during a heads up sng freeroll (twice I believe we used it) and the feedback was really good (it was all 2p2ers, so thinking players of various stakes from low to high). That may not be the answer, but it might be a fun and productive idea to trial out some sort of new structures every so often, at least at one buyin level.

- What about added benefits to sitting regulars besides direct monetary gain? For example, if you can outlast another regular, or if you can grab a free lobby after sitting a reg, if you can intimidate other regulars from playing at your level as long, those are all benefits that have real value to you that you won't get from sitting a non regular. It may not make up for that edge (I would bet it does not), but it might need to be calculated into the comparisons of playing regs versus not playing regs (along with the VIP %s when talking about breakeven lines).

That is of course not to say any of those side benefits are guaranteed. If I could play on Stars at this moment and sat Reg X in a 1k, it would do nothing for me as far as getting a free lobby, intimidating other regs or anything like that. Those benefits are for the very best players at each stake level on average. But from talking to players, this does seem to exist, and seems to be a real advantage and factor in their decision on whether or not to sit a regular player.

Great idea by bighusla in hypers!

Also love will love to see more HUMTT/HUSNG MTTS!


If I can sum it up the "must have" ideas (but I didnt read all of the posts) so far it will be:

* Add one more table option

* More time at hyper levels

* More HUMTT/SNG MTT

* HUSNG players promotions

* shorter gaps between stakes

And every new thing that pleases most of the players is also good for PokerStars even if they dont gain directly. Happy customers FTW!

Good Luck!

lol don't change the structure

+1

Great summary I agree and I'm sure most players will agree with everything you said except shorter gaps between stakes.

please make 300s into 350s like on full tilt. 200-300-500 gap is a bit unnatural imo

I agree don't change he structure just add 2 more minutes to each level.

No pls dont do this...
I dont think everybody want this.

+1