**Official PokerStars Heads Up SNG Improvement Thread**
02-15-2012
, 03:24 PM
We're going to restart discussion in this thread. PokerStars Rep(s) will be commenting on suggestions.
We can get the ball rolling by summarizing some of the changes suggested in the previous 300+ post thread.
Here are the main suggestions from the first 100 posts.
We can get the ball rolling by summarizing some of the changes suggested in the previous 300+ post thread.
Here are the main suggestions from the first 100 posts.
Quote:
Yes exactly TheTurbo, we definitely need some promotions to attract more players given how much of total rake husngs (and esp sts) bring in, compared to formats that are getting promoted the **** out of.
But the first step is establishing ourselves and the community behind a representative who can speak on behalf of us all.
But the first step is establishing ourselves and the community behind a representative who can speak on behalf of us all.
Quote:
in
agree with the lack of promotion ... we can't take part in battle of planets etc... Also the lobbies are crowded sometimes, wouln't mind if there were 3 open tables for hypers/2 for turbos.
+ one idea: if you get an opponent that you want to play more tables against. There should be an option on the table suggesting playing more tables to your opponent. He will simply accept or decline.
agree with the lack of promotion ... we can't take part in battle of planets etc... Also the lobbies are crowded sometimes, wouln't mind if there were 3 open tables for hypers/2 for turbos.
+ one idea: if you get an opponent that you want to play more tables against. There should be an option on the table suggesting playing more tables to your opponent. He will simply accept or decline.
Quote:
Also, mentioned by others before me, have shorter gaps between stakes...15, 20, 30, 45, 60, etc...helps ease the pain of dropping down due to BR requirements and makes it quicker to move back up.
Another one I've been thinking about is something between Turbo and ST, like 40bb or so...in a year or two, it will become very hard to beat the STs, and even with rake lowered these games might be very difficult, so going up to 40bb and removing ST at that time (when it becomes unfeasible for most regs to play) would be good, fish would still love it and the edges increase.
Another one I've been thinking about is something between Turbo and ST, like 40bb or so...in a year or two, it will become very hard to beat the STs, and even with rake lowered these games might be very difficult, so going up to 40bb and removing ST at that time (when it becomes unfeasible for most regs to play) would be good, fish would still love it and the edges increase.
Quote:
Good idea dude. I think Livb might do it. Any interest in protecting the reg speed/turbo formats? Any interest in keeping hypers at lvl 1 with no level changes? makes sense to me, they'd still go fast at 25<bb play but bit more skill. Any interest in a No limit Omaha version of the same hyperturbo game?
Quote:
Honestly I cannot see why no one has done this yet, even for HU cash I think it would be a good option.
Obviously its in the sites best interest that we play as many hands/games as possible so I'm really confused why it hasn't been implemented. I feel like there is a really legitimate reason why it hasn't happened that I have overlooked though, because it just seems far to obvious of a change to make.
Obviously its in the sites best interest that we play as many hands/games as possible so I'm really confused why it hasn't been implemented. I feel like there is a really legitimate reason why it hasn't happened that I have overlooked though, because it just seems far to obvious of a change to make.
Quote:
A few points:
- Maybe we should really be thinking about changes both good for PokerStars and for the players here.
- More promotion for these games is a really good point. Obviously MTTs are the big king of "casual player appeal" but I think hyper turbos have a lot going for them for casual player appeal, more than turbos or regular speeds even had (I highly doubt casual players like to sit in games like regular speeds vs pros and win only 40% of the time).
- We have some visual pros. Adonis112 has been consistently at the top of popularity among husng players for years. Bjoerni is a team Stars pro and is fairly popular. Melanie Weisner is a pretty obvious popular heads up sng player. And of course, you have people like Isildur already on Team Stars who really seems to enjoy playing heads up sngs. So there are plenty of people with some decent appeal to work with here and we've seen each of those players open to some level of promotion already (Weisner was a FTP pro, Livb has done the WSOP among many other events in a visible way, Bjoerni and Isildur are PS pros).
- We have even more pros in the next tier. Guys like HokieGreg, PrimordialAA, Mersenneary, Moshman, SkaiWalkurrr and others might not drive hordes of clueless players into our game, but they do inspire people to play this game, to try this game out, etc. and that is a net win for us in the long run.
Maybe it's best to just keep throwing out ideas and discussing them in a constructive way. Try to lay off hate or insults, but if you see some, don't worry too much about it, Stars isn't some small, bitter/hostile regime that will take a few negative comments terribly and spite screw a community over it.
Here are a few ideas...
For PokerStars
- More visual articles on PokerStars.com (blog/news) about live heads up mtts, featuring visible players in our domain such as Bjoerni.
- Something with Isildur. He plays these games a lot, against the best players that we have and it's an exciting thing for many (how many posts or skype group chat messages are made when Isildur wars a reg in the 5ks?). Perhaps he can do a series of 5ks against a challenge opponent in 2012, a twist on his popular hu cash challenges.
- A visible leaderboard promotion for heads up sngs.
- More experimentation with structures, lobby setup and in general. Some people want unlimited lobbies, some want 1, some want 3-4 lobbies at a stake and others might want some blind registration feature. So try them all out at various stakes at various times, lets get some data on how each of these ideas goes. The feedback may surprise PokerStars, players, etc. and we may stumble upon a much better approach to doing things, both for the room and players.
- Find ways to make it worthwhile for more regulars to play against one another, without completely destroying fish. For example, you can make the case that it is worthwhile for regs to play each other in the regular speed structure, as it's slower and deeper for much longer than a turbo or hyper turbo structure. But if we switch to regular speeds, then the fish will have a much worse per game edge again, and that can't be a positive thing (and if a reg can get a 60% edge vs a fish he won't be as likely to play a reg he has a 53-55% edge on). So one idea would be to actually change the game you're playing when two regulars at the $100+ level sit each other. Maybe the blinds start doubled and the rake is 50-75% of what it normally is when two winning players sit each other (you could make requirements: winning in the last month, last year, etc. and just adjust the variables until you're happy for the goal: getting more regulars to play games against each other, creating more action when there are many regulars and few non regulars playing, in high stakes and at off peak times in particular). Just one idea, but I'd like to see some progress towards this facet of the game, helping get regular, winning players to play each other more often (leading to more potential profit for the best players and more natural regulation of the levels that regulars are playing at... less "us vs them" among winners, and more "I play for a living/the only team I am on is my own." Heads up poker is not a team sport.
For Players
- This one is for the $100+ regs and professionals of our game: Blog, facebook, tweet, post in forums about heads up sngs, your progress, thoughts, etc. The more visible you are collectively, the more interest is generated in our game. This doesn't have to be strategy oriented at all. The goal is generating interest with this. Talk about a reg that you're warring, talk about a reg war at higher stakes going on, talk about what makes the top, most successful guys successful, talk about Bjoerni making team pro or Adonis playing a live mtt or Fishenzon making 500k+ at the tables in 2011 or fisfarfar winning more money on one site in husngs than anybody has before in a single year... talk about this stuff. Instead of firing off a private IM to your buddy about this stuff, tweet it or post it on the forums.
- This one is for everybody: Take a few minutes out of your day and go to the Poker Goals and Challenges forum and take a look at a few of the many HUSNG challenges people are running. Read their thread, their progress and put together a few positive sentences of encouragement.
- Similar to the last, check out the Beginner Questions forum here on 2p2, look for HUSNG questions threads and give the person a good answer. Always mention that they can check out the heads up sng forum for other questions or resources, and shoot them a link to our forum here.
- Get involved. We lost some absurd % of the playerbase from US events on black friday. We're losing playerbases in other countries as well, countries that are fencing off their players from the worldwide playerbase. This is bad, but it will happen unless we start organizing, speaking to politicians, telling them how the industry truly works and attaching some real faces to what is likely just "gambling and revenue" to so many of the old elite in charge of our laws in this world. This is really the biggest single thing that can change our game for the good. Nothing that I mentioned above should help the game as significantly as the re-addition of the US playerbase to the worldwide player pool, though that seems unlikely to happen for years. But just changing a potential 4 years into 3 years is a huge move for us and is worth a lot of money to the games in general (money that is out there for the hardest workers to grab).
Me?
- Happy to display/highlight/help gain exposure to any major promotion in the domain of heads up sngs, both here and on husng.com. Happy to talk to other visible pros and businesses in our domain and get them doing the same if/when PokerStars has a good promo ready to launch (or Party, or Ipoker if they ever want to get serious about their heads up sng offerings).
- Maybe we should really be thinking about changes both good for PokerStars and for the players here.
- More promotion for these games is a really good point. Obviously MTTs are the big king of "casual player appeal" but I think hyper turbos have a lot going for them for casual player appeal, more than turbos or regular speeds even had (I highly doubt casual players like to sit in games like regular speeds vs pros and win only 40% of the time).
- We have some visual pros. Adonis112 has been consistently at the top of popularity among husng players for years. Bjoerni is a team Stars pro and is fairly popular. Melanie Weisner is a pretty obvious popular heads up sng player. And of course, you have people like Isildur already on Team Stars who really seems to enjoy playing heads up sngs. So there are plenty of people with some decent appeal to work with here and we've seen each of those players open to some level of promotion already (Weisner was a FTP pro, Livb has done the WSOP among many other events in a visible way, Bjoerni and Isildur are PS pros).
- We have even more pros in the next tier. Guys like HokieGreg, PrimordialAA, Mersenneary, Moshman, SkaiWalkurrr and others might not drive hordes of clueless players into our game, but they do inspire people to play this game, to try this game out, etc. and that is a net win for us in the long run.
Maybe it's best to just keep throwing out ideas and discussing them in a constructive way. Try to lay off hate or insults, but if you see some, don't worry too much about it, Stars isn't some small, bitter/hostile regime that will take a few negative comments terribly and spite screw a community over it.
Here are a few ideas...
For PokerStars
- More visual articles on PokerStars.com (blog/news) about live heads up mtts, featuring visible players in our domain such as Bjoerni.
- Something with Isildur. He plays these games a lot, against the best players that we have and it's an exciting thing for many (how many posts or skype group chat messages are made when Isildur wars a reg in the 5ks?). Perhaps he can do a series of 5ks against a challenge opponent in 2012, a twist on his popular hu cash challenges.
- A visible leaderboard promotion for heads up sngs.
- More experimentation with structures, lobby setup and in general. Some people want unlimited lobbies, some want 1, some want 3-4 lobbies at a stake and others might want some blind registration feature. So try them all out at various stakes at various times, lets get some data on how each of these ideas goes. The feedback may surprise PokerStars, players, etc. and we may stumble upon a much better approach to doing things, both for the room and players.
- Find ways to make it worthwhile for more regulars to play against one another, without completely destroying fish. For example, you can make the case that it is worthwhile for regs to play each other in the regular speed structure, as it's slower and deeper for much longer than a turbo or hyper turbo structure. But if we switch to regular speeds, then the fish will have a much worse per game edge again, and that can't be a positive thing (and if a reg can get a 60% edge vs a fish he won't be as likely to play a reg he has a 53-55% edge on). So one idea would be to actually change the game you're playing when two regulars at the $100+ level sit each other. Maybe the blinds start doubled and the rake is 50-75% of what it normally is when two winning players sit each other (you could make requirements: winning in the last month, last year, etc. and just adjust the variables until you're happy for the goal: getting more regulars to play games against each other, creating more action when there are many regulars and few non regulars playing, in high stakes and at off peak times in particular). Just one idea, but I'd like to see some progress towards this facet of the game, helping get regular, winning players to play each other more often (leading to more potential profit for the best players and more natural regulation of the levels that regulars are playing at... less "us vs them" among winners, and more "I play for a living/the only team I am on is my own." Heads up poker is not a team sport.
For Players
- This one is for the $100+ regs and professionals of our game: Blog, facebook, tweet, post in forums about heads up sngs, your progress, thoughts, etc. The more visible you are collectively, the more interest is generated in our game. This doesn't have to be strategy oriented at all. The goal is generating interest with this. Talk about a reg that you're warring, talk about a reg war at higher stakes going on, talk about what makes the top, most successful guys successful, talk about Bjoerni making team pro or Adonis playing a live mtt or Fishenzon making 500k+ at the tables in 2011 or fisfarfar winning more money on one site in husngs than anybody has before in a single year... talk about this stuff. Instead of firing off a private IM to your buddy about this stuff, tweet it or post it on the forums.
- This one is for everybody: Take a few minutes out of your day and go to the Poker Goals and Challenges forum and take a look at a few of the many HUSNG challenges people are running. Read their thread, their progress and put together a few positive sentences of encouragement.
- Similar to the last, check out the Beginner Questions forum here on 2p2, look for HUSNG questions threads and give the person a good answer. Always mention that they can check out the heads up sng forum for other questions or resources, and shoot them a link to our forum here.
- Get involved. We lost some absurd % of the playerbase from US events on black friday. We're losing playerbases in other countries as well, countries that are fencing off their players from the worldwide playerbase. This is bad, but it will happen unless we start organizing, speaking to politicians, telling them how the industry truly works and attaching some real faces to what is likely just "gambling and revenue" to so many of the old elite in charge of our laws in this world. This is really the biggest single thing that can change our game for the good. Nothing that I mentioned above should help the game as significantly as the re-addition of the US playerbase to the worldwide player pool, though that seems unlikely to happen for years. But just changing a potential 4 years into 3 years is a huge move for us and is worth a lot of money to the games in general (money that is out there for the hardest workers to grab).
Me?
- Happy to display/highlight/help gain exposure to any major promotion in the domain of heads up sngs, both here and on husng.com. Happy to talk to other visible pros and businesses in our domain and get them doing the same if/when PokerStars has a good promo ready to launch (or Party, or Ipoker if they ever want to get serious about their heads up sng offerings).
Quote:
+1 I'm 100% on board with this idea and I also nominate Ryan. I also agree with all of his ideas mentioned in his above post except
This is a terrible idea please do not push to get this implicated. You don't want stars taking it too far one day and not allowing players with win rates that are too high to play against losing players anymore like another site recently did for cash games.
This is a terrible idea please do not push to get this implicated. You don't want stars taking it too far one day and not allowing players with win rates that are too high to play against losing players anymore like another site recently did for cash games.
Quote:
PokerStars could do with some sort of husng promo to help boost VIP levels at the low stakes turbos (regspeed are likely just as bad, hypers probably a little better but there the RB is more valuable too), it's pretty harsh currently. To obtain Goldstar at the $7 turbos, where FPPs start to approach reasonable rakeback - single tabling is about 10 hours per day! Silverstar is doable if you play a lot, but only effective ~20% RB.
The micro cash has a higher multiplier, be nice if HUSNG got some too
The micro cash has a higher multiplier, be nice if HUSNG got some too
Quote:
Didn't read the whole thread but two things i think would be awesome for up sngs:
-increasing the buy-in limits, i do feel like this is what doesn't attract many ppl/fishes to husngs and why buy-in leves are getting tougher every year. Something like, if you would have buy-ins like 10k, 20K, 100K or even higher it would attract a lot more known pros (ivey, isil, patrick etc) to play them, make other already established known husng pros more notable (would they play them) and increase husng visibility to the public / hence more players, more fishes playing husng. And if things go well it would probably free some space to mid stakes regs etc because people could move up. If the husngs population would become too much diluted (one of the few problems i see with this) maybe cut some limits that already exist at lower stakes, and try things until its good for everybody.
-make some kind of race were what would matter is mostly the number of games ppl play at x buy ins and y type of husng (with roi being also a part of the equation). I don't think to fishes leader-boards towards results are that appealing, and the illusion of making x money if i play x games might make a fish continue to play relentlessly even thought he is losing money with the hope that he will get it back.
I played once something like this at ipoker at the sng leaderboard and fishes were all playing this game, losing tons a month, getting some back in the end of the month etc. Was actually ridiculous the amount of fishes at the top of the leaderboard but those games were always full of action and i think this is way more important than rakeback or (results oriented) leader-boards were people will be fighting for egos mostly.
-increasing the buy-in limits, i do feel like this is what doesn't attract many ppl/fishes to husngs and why buy-in leves are getting tougher every year. Something like, if you would have buy-ins like 10k, 20K, 100K or even higher it would attract a lot more known pros (ivey, isil, patrick etc) to play them, make other already established known husng pros more notable (would they play them) and increase husng visibility to the public / hence more players, more fishes playing husng. And if things go well it would probably free some space to mid stakes regs etc because people could move up. If the husngs population would become too much diluted (one of the few problems i see with this) maybe cut some limits that already exist at lower stakes, and try things until its good for everybody.
-make some kind of race were what would matter is mostly the number of games ppl play at x buy ins and y type of husng (with roi being also a part of the equation). I don't think to fishes leader-boards towards results are that appealing, and the illusion of making x money if i play x games might make a fish continue to play relentlessly even thought he is losing money with the hope that he will get it back.
I played once something like this at ipoker at the sng leaderboard and fishes were all playing this game, losing tons a month, getting some back in the end of the month etc. Was actually ridiculous the amount of fishes at the top of the leaderboard but those games were always full of action and i think this is way more important than rakeback or (results oriented) leader-boards were people will be fighting for egos mostly.
Quote:
Imo visability of HUSNG on the internet should significantly increase to that point that beginners within googling 5min arrive at a site where honestly the long term profit/beatable possibilities of different sites for HUSNG are discussed.
With the consequence that beginners are driven to sites where the HUSNG games are actually beatable. This to direct the beginners and such the market towards equilibrium for longterm beatable HUSNG games.
And such the community can make honest suggestions to make games longterm profitable/beatable taking into account that if the sites do not have a constant/improved rake inflow (now primary caused by increased player-base / increased player choice of game) the suggestion will probably not even be considered.
With the consequence that beginners are driven to sites where the HUSNG games are actually beatable. This to direct the beginners and such the market towards equilibrium for longterm beatable HUSNG games.
And such the community can make honest suggestions to make games longterm profitable/beatable taking into account that if the sites do not have a constant/improved rake inflow (now primary caused by increased player-base / increased player choice of game) the suggestion will probably not even be considered.
Quote:
Good afternoon. I am a customer Poker Stars. I like to play tournaments Heads Up, but playing against one opponent, sometimes it's boring and I want to take part in a major tournament, they are called "Shootout", a big tournament, I mean the number of participants 100-200. These tournaments you, too organized, but they quite expensive for me, or too cheap, I know that you have a tournament for $ 215 and $ 22 with a good structure and a good number of participants, but the difference in buy ins is very high and I would like you had a tournament for 55 $, for example, with a guaranteed prize pool, ideally it would be great if it was a knockout tournament with a turbo structure \ reg speed and began to 20-24 hours Moscow time. Heads Up Poker is now becoming more popular and increase the number of tournaments designed for more players would be wise on your part. Players in any case will not pass them by, and will take part in them. The difference in $ 22 and $ 215 is very significant for players who wish to participate in such tournaments, for $ 215 is too expensive, $ 22 many are simply not interested. Me and my friends who also love to play Heads Up tournaments, liked the idea. It would be great if you could organize such a tournament and he passed every day. I remember at Full Tilt Poker was a tournament similar to what I described, he was part of a series of FTOPS, you may be able to do something like that and please their customers. Many fans of Heads Up Poker would be grateful to you and would participate in this tournament, besides the players who do not regularly play these tournaments must have participated in these tournaments, as Heads Up is one of the most exciting poker, it attracts many people. Thank you for your work, I hope you do not ignore this request and come up with something, thank in advance. Russian players and fans of Heads Up Poker.
Quote:
Husng ladder would be a pretty quick way to give something to the hu community,and i'd imagine it would be relative easy to implement considering there are already ladders for stts/mtts.
Maybe some hu match for person ranked no1 in the ladder on each level,with PS pros for like 20ABI or something so that husngs get more exposure also.
Maybe some hu match for person ranked no1 in the ladder on each level,with PS pros for like 20ABI or something so that husngs get more exposure also.
02-15-2012
, 05:43 PM
02-15-2012
, 06:53 PM
02-16-2012
, 04:16 AM
02-16-2012
, 04:58 AM
02-16-2012
, 06:11 AM
