Indeed the results from PPT shove equity tool are similar to yours (differences are probably due to card removal).
I pasted the generated PQL query below in case you want to play with it on PQL Runner.

Trials	OPPONENTNETCHIPS	SHOVERNETCHIPS	OPPONENTCALLFREQUENCY
600000	3.29	-0.29	258339 (43.06%)

no in my spreadsheet it's -0.36

they will be a slight difference because of:
1. card removal
2. card ordering (in mine you can't raise 50.43% it will have to be 50.53% or 49.62%)
3. also in mine you will be 14.5BB deep or 15 BB deep and not 14.9

the actual real result in your exact situation is -0.43. using 14.5bb deep and 50.53% opening range mine is -0.36. I think it's close enough.

hy i have 2 question...
1) when you use card removal that doesn;t means that you should also addapt his oppening range? his oppening range isn't smaller ?
2) how is the equity calculeted compare to folding? i mean folding is -1BB ev wright? that means any equity between 0 and -1 is better than folding?

1) no you don't need to adapt his range. You can never know precisely anyways what his opening range is. You just have to go with the stats you have got. Card removal comes into effect in the "calling your shove calcs". For instance if you have an A in your hand and your villain and your villain only calls with Ax (for argument sake) that mean that he will not call you as often (cause your A takes away lots of his combos) and that will change the Equity when he calls too. (this is why cardremoval is important because in most cases the 3 bet shoving equity comes from the folding Eq and this is where card removal has the biggest effect)

2) The equity is calculated after posting the blinds so folding is 0EV. Therefore if you find an EV of -0.5 it's -0.5 worst than folding. (or -1.5 from the beginning of the hand if you prefer)

I use the formulas with and without card removal and the results are different in any case, but idk why

Yes, mistyped, i mean 50.53

I definitely can, but i'm God . All joking aside, i use LibreOffice Calc and here is my screen. I know, now is 14.8, but i can't understand why.



gl

I do notice on your pic that the spreadsheet gives you ~ the right result -0.41

your calcs gave you a result of -0.42 your pics shows -0.41 for your T6o scenario. so it's all ok, isn't it?

you probably just mucked up the slider, no big deal. Im fact it I was redoing it I probably wouldn't put a slider. it would be quicker to type in the box. Just drag the slider till 100% and then click it (don't drag it) it should go back in 0.5 increments. (or leave it that way if you prefer, it won't make any difference to the calcs)

also I made an OO and an excel version but I have no idea how it behaves on libreoffice.

Lol, i was so hurried that i hadn't even noticed. Yes, with 14,8bb my EV is -0.40 and your EV is -0.41, so it's not a big difference. But this calculations don't take into account card removal, isn't it?

Yes, i think it's best. I think that also opening range could be more comfortable without slider.

Well, LibreOffice should be the same source code, so there aren't too many differences yet.

gl

my calc do take card removal in consideration. I can't take of the slider for PFR otherwise it won't be able to count the combos and account for card removal as for instance in your first exemple when you made a mistake and had a PFR of 50.43%. The sheet wouldn't be able to count the combos simply because it's impossible (with that card ordering)to open raise the top 50.43%. This because if you had one hand to a 49.62% PFR it jumps to 50.53% (unless you decide to open all K2o execp Kc2s or something silly like this for instance)

TY genher for your patience.
Let me do some math, cause I noticed that the results are similar only if we don't take into account card removal.
We have 15 bb, 1 already invested (of course, we are on the bb) and small blind minraise, so the pot now is 3bb.
We have T6o.
Villains opens 50.53% of total hands, means 670 hands on 1326.
He calls a shove with {66+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,A5o+,KTo+,QJo}, means 263/1225 or 21.47%.
Villain calls a shove 21.47% / 50.53% = 42.49% of the time; obviously he folds the remaining time, 57.51%.

Equity T6o vs his range = 31.09%
EV if called (EVC) = (15bb * 2) * 0.3109 - 14bb = -4.673bb.

Total EV (EVT) = %fold * ActualPot + %call * EVC = 0.5751 * 3bb + 0.4249 * (-4.673bb) = -0.2602577bb.

The only things that can change in the formula are the % of combos that he calls and the equity vs his range. But I don't think that you can have a different equity; so, maybe there are some errors in the card removal.

As a proof, here are the results of different spreadsheet.
Mine


Insane-Steve



Your


Do not misunderstand, I'm not criticizing your excellent work, I just would to give you a hand to improve your spreadsheet

gl

The only way to check the exact value is if you show what is the 50.53% range you are using so we can apply card removal to the opening and calling ranges.

If you post it here I can double check the calcs with CREV or PPT.

BTW I remember genher checking the correctness of his calculator with CREV.

Well, I don't take into account card removal for opening range and I don't make any assumption on a range, just tried the calculation with a random range.
As I understand, the program doesn't use card removal for the opening range, so I don't think this is the problem, right?

gl

I think it does not make sense to use card removal for the calling range and not do it for the opening range.
Villain calling frequency is [(nr of combos of calling range - (hero hole cards)]/
[(nr of combos of opening range) - (hero hole cards)]
so if you remove from calling range but don't remove from opening range you will be a bit off.
In any case if you post the exacty 50.53% range you are using we can clear that issue.

Edit: I just ran this on CREV with opening range AA-22,AKs-A2s,KQs-K5s,QJs-Q7s,JTs-J7s,T9s-T7s,98s-97s,87s-85s,76s-75s,65s-64s,54s-53s,43s-42s,32s,AKo-A2o,KQo-K8o,QJo-Q9o,JTo-J8o,T9o-T8o,98o-97o,87o-86o,76o-75o,65o-64o,54o (50.53%) and calling range you posted above.
In the spreadsheet you ticked the 'Exclude 22-55 from opening range' but it has no implications on card removal since hero hole cards are T6o.

Output is EV(BB) = -0.27bb

There are a few problems with your calculations but it appears to be a mistake in a formula somewhere too (my worst nightmare). The EV when called appears to be wrong in my sheet. Obviously I need to check that over the next few days and fix it. I'll post on here as soon as I have done it.

@erdnase17 you don't need to have the fold branch in CREV for SB as we calculate the eq for the 3 betshove and not from the begining of the hand

Thanks guys!

I confirm. There is definitely a bug. I will not play tomorrow and instead spend these 5h fixing it and running more checks. It should be fixed by the end of the tomorrow.

Thanks for the tip genher. I am a CREV newb :-)

quick update:

@tigerjack89

dude you are gifted, the mistake is in the T6o formula (you just hit a 1/169!). when I checked it all I also found another small bug in the "EV when call calc" (that probably explain why there was small differences compare to CREV, I originaly put it down to rounding). So thanks to you it's going to be more accurate now.



Also card removal is accounted for in the preflop ranges! So if villain raise his top 2.56% (QQ+, Ako, AKs) he raises 34 combos but if you have Ac4h he can only be raising 27 combos (cause there is one A he can't have). So, if he just calls with KK+ (usually 12 combos) he only calls with 9 combos and therefore calls 33.3% of the time (9/27).
Without card removal he would have called 35.3% of the time (12/34)
(In your exemple if he raises his top 50.53% and we have T6o he is raising 600 combos and calling with 263 combos and therefore folding ~56.2% of the time)


Anyways, I have already fixed the excel version. The OO version should be done soon. I'll send them to HUSNG.com as soon as it's done.

i'm having some problems viewing this in excel 2011 on mac. it's like i'm in the 'editing mode' rather than the 'using mode' - if i click on the arrows (where you change opening range, no of bbs) it creates a box round the whole thing with the draggable corners and the 'format picture' tab is highlighted. I clicked 'enable macros' when the file opened.

double clicking the numbers in the main chart works fine, comes up with the box telling you FE and CE, likewise the exclude 22-55 box works fine too.

re the number of big blinds, am i right in thinking that if we were 1300 eff at 50/100 i should put 12 into the BB slider and not 13?

thanks for all the effort you put into this, looking forward to using it once i get the excel problem sorted

lol it's the first time I used it, not bad; big G would pay me for this
I think it's great and very useful to use card removal for opening range, but I have just another question: how is the combos inserted in the range? I mean, how is the 50.53% calculated? Which method it use? S-C chart, Pokerstove chart or ? In other words, where I can find the exact range of this % ???

Another time, ty for your work genher

gl

Let me fix both version first then i'll try to help you with this. Shouldn't be too long


the card ordering I used is as follow: to count the combos this is how the excel spreadsheet does it: when you start moving the slider it selects the first hand (AA), count the combos for the selected hand (6 here) and tells you than villain raises 6/1326 0.45%. keep clicking the slider and it will select more and more hand in the order above and do the calc. it's a bit tricky on excel but possible.

is that the "standard HU" ordering?

I am not sure there is a standard!? To be honest I can't remember where I found it (and that's a bit silly)but it is certainly more apropriate than CREV's one (which is designed very much for 6 max).
This is actually quite a tricky subject I was going to use a purely mathematical HU hand ordering but then it wouldn't have been very representative of what people actualy raise with. I wondered about that one for a while, then found this ordering ok. There isn't much significant differences anyways

This is equilab hand ordering next to mine for the same PFR (and stove is also slightly different I believe)

Update:

There was a bug in one of the hand calc (T6o). When I checked it all, I also found an other small one in the "call your shove calc" (luckily it made the results a bit too conservative and not the opposite).

I fixed it all and ran more tests. I checked about 50 random hands last night in one scenario. no difference with CREV.
This morning I ran "whole hand grid" vs every single calling range and compared with CREV results. No problems (I get a few 0.01BB EV differences, I checked them, it's rounding).

While I was at it I also removed the slider for the effective stack. I figured out that it was easier and quicker to type than click endlessly on the slider . That way you guys can also use it for stack> at 25BB if you wish or use more precise effective stacks (decimals other than .5).

I have sent the 2 new versions to HUSNG.com. They should be available there soon.

Enjoy it!

You probably are in design mode go in the developer tab and unclick design mode. This is excel 07 but should be similar in yours:




it's effective stack after posting the blind, so if you have 1300 (and this is the smaller stack of the 2) and post 100 (the BB) then eff stack is 12, yes.
I did it that way because it's a bit easier to calculate the eff stack online as the poker room softwares and hand replayers always take your BB automatically. You look at your stack divide by the BB. The other way you have to look at your stack add the BB and then divide. just a bit easier that way.

Hope that helps. Let me know if you still have issues

ty for the reply.

hmmm that's weird, no such thing that i can see in excel '11.

does the excel 2011 for mac HELP has any info on where the designer mode is?

alternatively, I am not a mac user but apparently you can download this http://www.agentjim.com/MVP/Excel/xl2011toolbar.html