Hi! At first I thought about posting this to the variance area but then decided that this would be a better area to post it.
I've played as a semipro for couple of years and have done well in playing shorthanded tables + heads up, up to nl400 and have a nice scope graph from shorthanded tournaments also. So naturally I assumed that heads up sng´s are pretty much like normal hu + tournament play combined or maybe a better way to say it is I assumed I have edge in HU sng's because I am a winning player in those.

Now it's time for me to do a reality check. My fight with sng hu's has turned out to be brutal hell. I've played almost 1M hands in no limit and have had my share of bad luck and setups and am not unfamiliar with variance. But this feels really like something else, I've never seen so many suckouts, setups and bad run of cards in my whole life and literally feel that I am cursed when playing these.

My sample is around 15k games with various buy in's mostly from 30+3 to 100+3. I am down almost 20k before rakeback and with rb guess close to breakeven. The reason that I have played so many sng's despite feeling like this is that I refused to believe they are rigged in some way and therefore expected to book winnings by studying the game and getting more experience. Also it became an ego matter as well.

After spending a lot of time studying the forums, players, poker stoves, ev calculators, nash equilibrium charts and every other source I can think of it seems it has lead me to nothing. Still can't beat any fish that sits in. Or actually seems I have won against the extreme fishes and also against the regs that are the most winning players.

btw the site I play mostly has I guess a little more turboish structure than most, depending on the game i guess its 2 hands per level for extremes, 5 for super turbos and 10 for normals if I am remembering this right now.

Are those unbeatable vs average players?
Is that a large enough sample to draw conclusions or still can be about variance? Should I just quit and forget hu sng's?

which site are you playing? 30+3 is a insane rake imo.

Can't help you much, but maybe you should take a coach and maybe you will find a leak or two (and such leaks could make the difference - I can imagine cash game players have most likely some leaks in shortstack play)

I am playing mostly in microgaming network and ongame because of tax reasons and since those two have the software I like the most. for 0-20bb late game I have been using a chart actually derived from nash equilibrium for optimal push/call hands. It is supposed to be optimal and mathematically "solved" in a way opponent can't exploit me. I've been adjusting it a little to my play since I feel I can do more with 13bb+ stack than just push/fold and generally have been calling people more tighter than would actually be optimal (since I am expecting only a handful of players actually shove as wide as would be mathematically acceptable.)

0-20bb chart? Hmm... So now we know where are your thousands of dollars

By the way - 5 hands per level is extreme, not talking about 2 hands... It is roulette. With 10% rake it is sick proposition.

Yeah. I have been using it quite a bit but don't mean that I just shove it in 20bb when I see a hand fitting in the chart. Generally It is a bit opponent related but somewhere around when it comes to 10bb and less I am pretty much in push/fold mode unless I have a solid reason not to. By this I mean I will occasionally limp in strong hands when I expect certain opponents to just shove it in majority of times, or if I am playing a loose passive guy who likes to see the flop nearly allways but plays fit or fold I just might limp in and take the pot from the flop. Ofc if I am playing against a tight fish I can just minopen every hand and watch him fold etc.

For example for 10bb stack a profitable shoving range would be:
+22+Kx+Q2s+Q8o+J4s+J8o+T5s+T8o+95s+98o 85s+87o+74s+64s-53s

By your reply I am sensing you don't agree this being a push/fold? Can you explain your reasoning or explain what is wrong with the range?

When do you reach a push/fold mode and how do you determine your range?

Assuming these are in fact non exploitable ranges for a shove here don't you think its +ev to just shove them and take use of the folding equity and because practically any raise pf makes you pot committed allready?

I am not trying to give you hard time from your comment, just trying to make a discussion and maybe learn something I haven't thought of or noticed.

I use sth called 'chubukov' to my endgame, and it starts around 7-8bbs for hands like weak Q or sth like this. Calling range strongly depends on my opponent - no chart applicable imo. I'm trying not to shove too deep if I feel I cannot be called by anything worse - and it also is 'villain dependent' You just wrote your post like 'ok - im 20bb deep - what nash says about that? K3s... ok - shove!'

Heh ok didn't wan't to give that impression but was trying hard not to write a too long post since I allready got a feeling I might be slipping into just typing and typing..

But yeah I guess those are a little like a lottery with such an agressive blinds. The rake in microgaming is capped to 3€ in a way that you will pay 3€ for 30+3 all the way to 250+3€. Being a little unsure of my game I have been avoiding those biggest ones and thought that what I pay for increased rake I gain in fishier villains.

Where do you play and how is the structure there? Would you say even those 5 hands/ level super turbos are unbeatable or what kind of roi% you think I could aim in say 50+3 or 100+3?

The site that I am currently playing has some sng and rake races and those hu sng's are a pretty fast way to rake a lot. Also it seems that there isnt exactly good action 24/7 like in bigger networks.

Sounds to me like you're not as good at heads up as you thought.

When I chose a room to play I look at couple things. First is rake - I never touch HU with more than 50c per 10 USD. Of course if you want to take part in rake race that might be ok, but 1 USD per each 10 USD of BI is a suicide imo. Even with 50% RB in fact you get nothing cause most sites just take only 50% of that rake, and in addition you get some RB from that 50% rake.

I liked old PS structure with 10/20, 15/30, 25/50 blinds - aftery they changed that I moved from PS. Level duration - 3/4min on turbos is ok, but 5 hands? I tried it on unibet for a while but that was pretty insane... It sometimes happen that you will play like 5-6 hands in 4 minutes, but all those hands says sth about your opponent. You see flop, make some postflop decision etc. On 5hand level, you fold 5 hands preflop, it takes like 30sec for both players, and here it is... Next level... 2 hands per level is worse than Hyper Turbo even with 1500 stack. Structure/blinds does not matter unless they are counted as a 'hands per level' Its just a matter of getting used to sth. There are different structures for various sites - there is a topic about that in HUSNG forum. Look at it and chose some 5% rake site

About ROI - no idea... 50+3 still looks bad. And of course '5 hands per level' will affect your ROI in negative way. Try to find sth with like 3-4mins per level. It is possible to maintain sth like 8-12% ROI on turbos with 5% rake, and 3-4min levels up to my knowledge Not sure about stakes... More like 8% on 100's and maybe 10-12% on lower stakes. Saw various players with various achievements, so even above 10% ROI is possible on pretty high stakes. For me those 'hands per level' turbos are sth like hypers from other sites - probably similar variance etc, so ROI about 4% is good - not sure... I do not play those, so ask someone else who plays hypers.

Read the Mersenearry ebook on HUSNG.com.

I'm by no means an expert but your calling/shoving ranges should be more dependant on your opponent than any 'unexploitable' charts imo. If you're opponent is only calling with AA, you're obviously shoving any two. It's an extreme example but demonstrates my point.
I think Mers demonstrates that 'unexploitable' is not equal to 'most profitable'.
Also check out the free vids on HUSNG and these forums.
Drop down a couple of buyin levels until you're better. I play at $1.50! Like I said, not an expert

Another "no expert" here.
First of all - rake on microgaming is INSANE!
10% rake ... NO WAY!
For instance at the 30+3 level, you need to sustain a solid 55% winrate so that you are only breakeven pre RB.
55% winrate with the 2, 5, 10 hand per blind level structure makes it quite hard imo.
2 hands per level is a roulette.
5 hands is still a roulette imo.
10 hands makes this something between a very fast turbo and a hyper.
Some math on the subject:
1k games per month on the 30+3 EUR normal speed (10 hand per level) games (microgaming) with solid 55% winrate will get you 3k EUR in rake. Assuming you get a pretty good RB deal and get about 50% rake back - this is 1.5k EUR.
1k games per month on Merge network on the 28+0,7 super turbos with 55% winrate (not sure if achievable, but probably as much achievable as 55% at micragaming's structure) will get you $2100 pre-rb. And since it is not very hard to get a close to 50% or more RB on Merge, this is another $350 from rake back.
My advice - GET OUT OF MICROGAMING!
Look at this thread and you will actually see that 10% rake per game is one of the highest possible for the 20+ levels.

OP, there's basically a few ways to look at your situation:
- games are too hard to beat. With 10% rake in turbos/STs, they might be. Take the time to compare the rake you play with other sites (including RB), and decide whether or not you should be able to beat the games.
- you can't improve and beat the games. (very unlikely, obviously...but this includes your willingness too. That doesn't seem to be the issue, though.)
- you are running bad and it will turn around.
- you need to work on your game.

HU SnGs are pretty gross in general...but I generally use extended downswings as an excuse to study. Can you be more specific about where you're doing your research?

- How much HUSnG.com have you watched?

- Have you checked out the articles here that were written by Mers, Skates, and Insane_Steve?

You said you seem to lose to fish, but beat mediocre regs (and super-fish). Have you gone through and spotted why? Just a few thoughts....
- its possible you aren't value betting enough. Generally, the ability to beat regs but lose to fish is due to having polarized ranges in situations where you could be value betting much thinner.
- what is your standard PFR on the BTN, and how do you adjust when against someone 3betting 15%+? How about against a fish? Against a calling station?
- what is your. VPIP OOP and 3bet%? How do you adjust?
- what is your CR% when faced with a C-bet?
- what is your double barrel%?

Tilt isn't getting in the way, is it?

Sorry to hear its been rough OP. There is nothing wrong with returning to what you know you can beat...but fwiw, you seem level-headed and intelligent. I don't think that's likely to be necessary.

Best of luck mate!

May I ask why you decided to move to HUSNGs in the first place when you had solid and consistent results at the SH and HU cash tables up to the 400$ level?

If you want to keep playing HUSNGs I highly recommend getting a coach. You have the money to afford one and as you're obv willing to learn / motivated this should improve your game fast. It's very important that the chemistry between student and coach is right. Therefore watch videos from different coaches first to see which will likely be "the right one" for you.

Thanks for the input guys! I will quote and answer to my best ability.

Yeah well that is what I am afraid of and now it's time for me to find out the truth. Hopefully this isn't the case but I am still open to this and try to be objective about it.

Thanks for your input! I don't have lots of accounts scattered all over the poker networks since I have been kind of settled in and used to microgaming and focused my games there. By doing this I have also gained some vip levels and even met some of the company workers in live tournaments which has kind of resulted in me being a loyal customer.

I did try some other networks in the past like everest etc. but quickly abandoned them because of the software. Seems like solid info so I am def going to take a closer look at some new sites now.

I will take look at that book ty. Yes I understand this but to my understanding I have been using the charts in only situations where it shouldn't matter what his calling range is. Before I am at that point I am at least trying to do exactly what you are saying. I understand that unexploitable-most profitable concept as well, the hard part is to determine where the line goes. I will read that book so maybe it there is something to clarify the situation.

Yeah, at least one thing for sure is I need to work on my game. I am embarassed to say and at the same time not afraid to admit that I haven't been studying the game as much as I should/could have. I am hoping to change that step by step and some of the first baby steps was to open an account here to sort things out. I do not have an account on Husng.com and haven't read those articles yet, will look into those. Yeah guess the problem lies in that for the most parts I have been focusing in HU and watching videos and hand histories mainly from those.

I am having a bit of hard time to answer your questions about all those pf/postflop decisions. Guess for PFR I am generally opening a lot of hands up to 100% if the villain seems to be willing to fold a lot. Some like to play a little looser to see the flop so my first adjustion will then be either increase the size of my pf raise or then pick slightly better hands and valuebet/call thinly.

How to adjust against 15% 3bet?: This is very hard to answer in hu sng's since it has so much to do with stack sizes in the 3bet situation and possibly a leak of mine.

If I were to play hu cash games against a guy 3betting 15% I would at first recognize that there is a lot or some air in his range. I do not see a guy who is 3betting 15% as a big time maniac but not exactly a nit either. Would cathegorize it as pretty standard.

After realizing this my next step is to try and get some idea of how much air/fold equity there is exactly. To further clarify I mean that there are almost as many possibilities to 3bet 15% as there are players (some might 3bet top 15%, some AA-QQ/AK + rest any two etc.) Trying to keep the reply short so in general I assume he wont be playing for stacks without holding at least 77+AQ+ which makes up for 6% -> 40% of his 3bet range so I can assume he will be folding a certain amount to 4bets.

-> It's possible to come up with a profitable 4betting range of valuehands/bluffs.

Next step is I guess to basicly start 4betting him and see his reaction to this (call with crap, fold, shove, slowplay...) Against a fish who shoves any two we will be looking forward to bluff less and widen the valuerange, against a fish who folds too much we will be bluffing more and guess against a calling station i will be bascily just looking to get him to valuetown.

Atc can do depending more of the gameflow (even though I personally try to pick some good Ax blockers or some nice looking suited cards.)

Ofc I am not looking forward to move all in holding these cards so sizing and stack sizes need to be suitable for the occasion. Purpose is always to apply pressure for the villain, forcing him to do the mistake before we do and possibly/hopefully tilt him in the process or reduce his game to pushing buttons with having the general feeling of uncomfortness.
But guess against general players in that situation I can 4bet them at least 20-25%.

Actually what I mean't was that I am taking the superfishes down for obvious reasons and do good against the better regs because I feel I understand their game better and recognize their abilities of leveling and feel that I usually do well in those d*ck swinging contests.

Tilt is definitely a factor. I've always had issues in booking a loosing day and more than once I've found myself staring at the monitor after I've lost 15-20 all ins in a row and thinking I must be the unluckiest player ever born. Then after playing countless hours of poker I really should just learn to get some sleep and not play more. Good instructions that have been so hard to follow in the past

I haven't made a decision to play strictly HUSNG. I am still playing mainly hu, shorthanded and tournaments and will likely continue to do so. I just like to switch between different poker forms and furthermore I am an pokeraddict and like to have some constant action while I am waiting for players or have plans on going somewhere shortly and have time for some sng action only. I have always felt that the more all-around player you are it will have a positive effect on other poker forms also. Lastly it's about the ego as well. As a personality outside the tables I have always enjoyed to achieve something which is hard. Just to test my limits and to prove to others who thought I couldn't do it.

Would still like to make some cash in those

I haven't really thought about getting myself a coach since I feel I couldn't get a lot out of it when I feel I am not even able to ask the right questions.
I think I will start from what has come up in this thread and take another look at it at somepoint in the future. Also I used the term nl400 in my first post to briefly give some idea where I think I stand in poker. I have played those limits in past (and will play them in the future also) but at the moment, as I am still a student I have spent a lot of my winnings just to improve my standards of living and currently have brm reserved for playing lower.

You don't need "the right questions" to get a HH reviewed, or to watch videos. Def. get a coach since you seem to be able to afford it. If you've been trapped in a certain style, you'll need someone objective to look at your game -- it'll be harder to do by yourself imo.

Best of luck

Look at the lower end of that range - do you really think 53s is an unexploitable shove 10bb deep? If he calls us with 62o we're behind. According to the Sklansky-Chubukov table, that is an exploitable shove at as little as 1.83bb deep. The key about the Nash chart is that the range as a whole is unexploitable. That doesn't apply to every single hand. For endgame results, assign ranges you think villain will call with and calculate what hands are +EV to shove against this range.

About that table: it says the maximum stack depth we can shove a hand and have it still be +EV even if our opponent calls with the exact optimal range vs your specific hand, with stack depths in small blinds. For example, J5s can be shoved at 7bb stack depths and it's guaranteed to be better than folding. These #s need to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, but the one fact you can take from this is that if the chart tells you a shove is profitable at a certain stack depth, you should never be folding it pre, as shoving will always be a better option. (obviously things like minraising could be even better options to consider, of course)

Coaching isn't just a theoretical discussion about poker / HUSNGs. It normally starts with a general leakfinder. This means you record a session using a screen video capture software like Camtasia and the coach will have a look at your overall game. This includes basic things like preflop ranges (are there inconsistencies?), c-betting on different board textures, bet sizes, play OOP... If the coach would have taken another line in a hand he explains you his thought process. Usually there are left like 15-20 minutes for discussion afterwards. If anything wasn't clear to you just ask. There are no wrong questions. Following sessions can be more specific, e.g. about endgame, preflop play...

I think a HUSNG-membership + a coach would be a really good investment in your case.

Tips:

As already mentioned: Watch some videos from different coaches first to decide which one is right for you.

Send a session with interesting / difficult spots, not one where most things where "standard", you played well and ran like god...

If you have any reads on the opponent include them (simply write them down in a text file). Adding a list of the specific spots that troubled you + your thoughts helps. Don't make it too long and add the time when those situations occur in the video.

Don't record your whole desktop + a small table. Make it big enough so that the coach can easily see all the relevant things like stack / bet sizes, hole cards, board... When the coach renders the video again with his audio commentary it will lose some quality. If you use Camtasia disable the "smart focus" option.

While watching the video the coach sent you (maybe twice) take notes about things that aren't clear to you. You can bring them up in the discussion on MSN, skype...

Sorry to hear OP, I hope you will turn things around.

Just one thing: 10% rake @ ongame isn't as bad as it seems, if you take rakeback into consideration.