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Limp/calling short

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12-27-2012 , 01:48 AM

WesDone

adept

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 828

What sort of hands are we flatting here? Also how much does villain need to jam over my limps here to be able to limp/call a jam?

Poker Stars, $58.74 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 2 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #15157771

Hero (SB): 730 (36.5 bb)
BB: 270 (13.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7

Hero completes, BB raises to 60, Hero folds

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.

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12-27-2012 , 11:26 AM

LeProtagonist

adept

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,052

Better to mr/f K7o at this depth than limp imo, suited/connected hands that flop well are much better to limp call as you flop well equity wise, whereas hands like k7o play better with initiative. Villain needs to jam ~52% for this to be a b/e limp call.

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12-27-2012 , 11:41 AM

shortchange

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 379

Care to esplain why you're limping K7o? Intuitively if we have a rational reason to limp K7o I'm probably not folding to an 3x iso from the same player. Similarly I'm probably limp calling up to 3x iso's SC's and higher connected hands that flop well around this depth, and likely nothing at all vs a jam.

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12-27-2012 , 12:01 PM

WesDone

adept

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 828

I wasn't sure about villains 3betjamming range so thought limping would be the safe choice. But yeah probably better to minr/fold this. Probably not a very good idea limp/calling a 3x, because without the initiative we're doing worse than minr/folding.

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12-27-2012 , 12:11 PM

shortchange

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 379

yah but you can't minraise once you limp and you can probably do better than -100bb/100 once you limp k7o ( limp/shove>limp/fold for example while I'm unsure of the expectation of limp/call but expect it can also do better than limp/folding ) ( or much of the rest of your limping range) assuming a standard rationale for limping.

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12-27-2012 , 12:17 PM

WesDone

adept

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 828

Once limped you're probably right about there being less losing options to play the hand out.

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12-27-2012 , 01:07 PM

Orsulab3rt

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,306

Limping is not so bad but i guess mr\fold is better,and if he 3b like crazy id mr\call.
like others said you want to limp\call 3x with hands that flop well like sc although 12-13bb a lot of sc is better to open shove.

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12-27-2012 , 01:32 PM

smeu

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 112

I see K7 at the limit of l/c and mr/f range. L/c (3x max)because I wanna see a flop with 2 cards over 7 and don't wanna be 3b jam light or mr/f when I have less expectations for the villain to jam us light.

It's weird without any info at all but I like l/c here better than l/f. I include in his range hands like TJ,TQ,JQ hands and assuming he will cbet we have nice implied odds for calling 2more bb pf.

But tbh I usually prefer min.raise here and fold to a jam without reads.

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12-27-2012 , 04:24 PM

AnJo280

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,654

why does nobody openshove this?

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12-27-2012 , 04:40 PM

#10

shortchange

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 379

I think most other options outperform openshoving K7o at this stack depth, and many shallower. I can't think of many situations where I would want to openshove K7o tbh. Why do you consider openshoving?

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12-27-2012 , 04:44 PM

#11

smeu

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnJo280

why does nobody openshove this?

I thought of that too but didn't think it through.

If we double him up to 540 then we'll be slightly even again and I estimate I will win in worse than average scenario 40% of the games in the long-run.

A better than average win-rate is 54%.

That makes me to win at least 14% at this point. I appreciate that vs a decent callin range we will have 35%(i chose a below-average no.,usually its more) so if we get called we win 35%. And we don't get called very often.

If my thinking makes sense, of course the numbers are debatable, a shove here would be great.

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12-27-2012 , 05:25 PM

#12

stone75

adept

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 881

tbh i don't understand not much of your post smeu.

Openshoving is not that great (everyone can do the math for themselfes). I think it is really standard to minraise/fold at this eff stack size (at 12BB you can start planning on minraise/calling vs specific opponents - again math is not that hard to do for that scenario).

If for some reason I limp - in my case it can only be a missclick - I am not folding K7 ip vs a 3x raise

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12-27-2012 , 05:41 PM

#13

AnJo280

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,654

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortchange

Why do you consider openshoving?

because knowing that i fold K7o vs 66-22 and A6-A2 and ****ty hands like 96o can call profitably ,makes me die a little inside .

I do minb/fold against tight people who fold too much to minraises, but i´m not confident its more profitable than jamming against the looser part of the population.

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12-27-2012 , 05:53 PM

#14

shortchange

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 379

I don't understand, your rationale is illogical.

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12-27-2012 , 05:55 PM

#15

stone75

adept

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 881

picking out only the part of opponents range we are doing good against when he jams over our minraise should really not make you die inside

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12-27-2012 , 05:59 PM

#16

none888

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,665

I think openjam is not bad here, it would be my second choice after minraising

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12-27-2012 , 08:19 PM

#17

smeu

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by stone75

My logic is that you have around 35% chances vs a decent calling range to win the match right there and if you lose you're still in the game. That doesn't mean a shove is the perfect here but can do great sometimes. It's not a clear spot as there are only few dead chips, a 3b ai would've been a better spot.But always depends on the opp, it's too vague.

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12-27-2012 , 09:10 PM

#18

shortchange

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 379

You write some pish boy

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12-27-2012 , 09:22 PM

#19

smeu

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 112

I think so too sometimes

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12-28-2012 , 02:36 AM

#20

riveredu

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 481

Every post you write smeu is about 'your still in the game' or 'you'll have chips left' or 'take a chance because you have more than your opponent'.
Stop thinking like that, just think in eff stack sizes and try make the most +ev decision based on those stacks and not how much more you or your opponent have, don't worry about that.

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12-28-2012 , 01:16 PM

#21

smeu

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 112

Thanks mate, you're right.

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